Food for thought

[mining]

The point is, you can't compare tokens in a vacuum. If it turns out the AO tokens are OP as all get out (and so far it's really not looking that way - I'd rather have the MA damage shield + immunity to low level spells than the AO true seeing token, in general) then so be it. In each faction pairing there's a more OP token, and a less OP token - AORK maybe gets slightly better tokens, but they're made with hindsight on every other factions tokens, and hindsight is 20-20. The AO true seeing token doesn't stack with true seeing, for one, and the AO AB/AC/Saves token is what it is, with no bugs attached - unlike the MA ones which are... eh, to say the least.

TBH, if there's any real imbalance, it's always been in the NC token - and if that were easily fixable, it would be.

Also, I think in general using hyperbole to make your argument is a bad idea. I personally dismiss arguments relying on hyperbole really fast - it feels tacky and like the idea doesn't stand on it's own merits.

[MtainEer]

Man this topic has jumped around so much I'm not sure where to start but I am glad that people are atleast talkin...no matter if you agree with me or not.

Now, first we come here to have fun and someone is gracious enough to host it free and others for free make changes so I appreciate that...even thou I often don't like the changes.

As far as the true seeing token AO gets...I hardly EVER use it...only if Im dispelled but I dual log. The real benefit of jobs is skills you get and this servers most important skills are spot, hide, move silently and disp...which I believe SL gets them all.

With Dev Crit back (which don't get me wrong, I'm excited about it), it kills AO & RK. MA and TC (unless crumble gets a big change) are now the top melee killers. I'll take a ftr, bard, pm or my nerfbait build against a rdd with dev anyday and twice on sunday.

BTW: Say what ya want but I came back with Kimmie, beat down SL and all the sudden they get 50% concealment from ranged attacks (proof that HIPS will never be nerfed here)

MtainEer

[Korr]

I was on the first tread of that SL/MA vs AO/TC/NC raid you were talking about the other night. First thing I did (that others didnt follow on) was get inside the relic room (note INSIDE... like ALL RELICS). So in every raid/defense you DO have a place to use it... because you CHOOSE to go outside is not the fault of the SL token.

Tokens are to the factions as are races and classes. NC has 1 class that can cast trueseeing... then 1 class that can UMD it.

SL has 3 classes that can cast TS. 3 classes that can UMD it. So is it really that big of a deal that TC has a token that gives it?

AO on the other hand is bound in its roots... Dragons have blindsense in PnP (imagine bioware trueseeing basically) which is how AO gets its token (considering they have 2 umd classes and 4 casting classes).

So without going into TOO much, just remember its all in respect to the FACTION its bound to. NOT your specific character build!

[mining]

With Dev Crit back (which don't get me wrong, I'm excited about it), it kills AO & RK. MA and TC (unless crumble gets a big change) are now the top melee killers. I'll take a ftr, bard, pm or my nerfbait build against a rdd with dev anyday and twice on sunday.
BTW: Say what ya want but I came back with Kimmie, beat down SL and all the sudden they get 50% concealment from ranged attacks (proof that HIPS will never be nerfed here)

With respect to point 1: If we enabled dev crit without balancing it, we'd be stupid, given that we have great case examples from HiPS, Stunning Fist, KD and so forth. Secondly, because dev crit forces you to be strength based, you cannot combo it with complete bullshit like HiPS, Edodge, Stunning fist, etc. easily. Again, posts unmotivated by any evidence (hypothetical because you don't even know what NS4's saves will look like with dev crit reenabled, and doubly unsubstantiated because you've done minimal maths to back it up) really don't float my boat for OP predictions.

Edit: Also, let the typical saves for a barb be ~45. (AC builds tend to have less, but are at less risk from a non hipser).
DC of stun/dev is 10 + half level + mod + {feats for stun}. For dev crit, a 25ish str mod is about the highest you can get, and that's DC 55. Stun tends towards 60, but that's harder to get to + more limited. So, if a +10 bonus to all saves was around, your average barb or fighter would be immune.
HOWEVER, NOTE: +10 is not a fixed number, etc. etc. it's just for the purposes of illustration etc. etc.


Secondly, 50% conceal from ranged attacks on a HiPSer... isn't that impressive given you could get the exact same deal from an II rod.

I could remove all job tokens, and the only real change would be that TCNC would lose a lot of power vs sneaks.

[hond]

i will try to make a resumen of my idea about the tokens..
First of all, english is my third languages, so i don't understand completly the use of sarcasm, technical words, etc...
But back to thread. When i say the +3AB/AC/Saves is OP, i'm speaking from a builder opinion. when i build a toon, i look for the use i will make (ex: a spoter to counter hiders, a specific tank to counter other etc...). In this way, you have to look some differents points : AB, AC, saves, disc are the basics points for a melee. so when you have to build a toon, you have a quantity of feats (preepics, epics, and class bonus) in order to run with a balanced toons, you have to equilibrate each thing, in order to no have a weak part...So you have to sacrificate 2 great strenght for example to take epic fortitude, and epic discipline, or 4 great strengh if you want epic reflex, epic will or SF spot/listen...so in all of case you have to choose to low something for grow other...but in all of case, your AB, your AC, your saves will be lowed or highed, as you get less epic feat from 1 thing and take other in change. When i'm speaking about how many feats, the AO token is made, i'm speaking from the builder view...and that token is just too monstruous...you could have made 3 differents tokens with it, and i will find them OP....and on this case is just 1... +3 AB (epic prowess+ epic weapon) + 3 AC (armor skin+2 epic dext) + 3 saves ( Epic fort -1+Epic will-1+ Epic reflex-1)...+1 AB /AC/saves sound more reasonable for a job token...whithout any check with the other factions token....And personaly, i try to defend a point of view from a faction: SL...Don't start to speak about MA...Ma have good token i will never negate him...but even MA token give less advantages then AO's one, and SL is just laughable (like TC is).
Now considering that AO have a unique prestige class who give +8 STR,+2CON/INT/CHA , +3 AC,paralisys/sleep/fire imunity for 10 lvls ,and adding that indecents tokens, i feel like the token spirit have been heavily broked. Even if token don't stack with RDD class, in the spirit, that token give similar advantage as RDD class to all class no RDD in AO.

I could remove all job tokens, and the only real change would be that TCNC would lose a lot of power vs sneaks

NC token have been made to balance their weakness vs sneaker..so yeah
RDD class, feets with tons of differents toons, and they don't particulary have a lack of AB/AC/saves...
That why i insist and will insist a long time...that token is BROKE
SL/TC have antagonist tokens....TC have random elemental damages (wich is a pain with a elemental damages weapon) and can use his conceal token in outside, while SL can't use his conceal outside, and recently the damages are shaped (like TC)
In last point..as faction have "eyes" token, what about a Lolth eye's with UV on it ???

[hond]

As far as the true seeing token AO gets...I hardly EVER use it...only if Im dispelled but I dual log. The real benefit of jobs is skills you get and this servers most important skills are spot, hide, move silently and disp...which I believe SL gets them all.

i change all my skills gained by jobs against +3AB/AC/saves....don't be hypocrit...regardless of the AB who only concern the mellee/range toon, AC and Saves are welcome in 99% of the toons...

[mining]

Well, TC you can't use inside cradles, SL you can.

[Nyeleni]

As far as the true seeing token AO gets...I hardly EVER use it...only if Im dispelled but I dual log. The real benefit of jobs is skills you get and this servers most important skills are spot, hide, move silently and disp...which I believe SL gets them all.

i change all my skills gained by jobs against +3AB/AC/saves....don't be hypocrit...regardless of the AB who only concer the mellee/range toon, AC and Saves are welcome in 99% of the toons...

He doesn't have to lie, Hond. He might just use classes which already have true seeing as a spell somewhere. Really don't try to attack other opinions like you do lately. It won't help your cause. Besides not mastering the english language (at least you express yourself well enough).

Sometimes we just have to accept that life or this game isn't fair and just .

[hond]

Well, TC you can't use inside cradles, SL you can.

true lol...they can use it just BEFORE entering in it...and use it in all outside PvP..wich we can't

[hond]

He doesn't have to lie, Hond. He might just use classes which already have true seeing as a spell somewhere. Really don't try to attack other opinions like you do lately. It won't help your cause. Besides not mastering the english language (at least you express yourself well enough).

Never said he was lying...just comparing +4spot/listen/hide with +3AB/AC/saves sound me like hypocrit...nothing more...

Sometimes we just have to accept that life or this game isn't fair and just .

that just why, i'm trying to convince the persons who can make it a bit more fair, and not to make it more unfair...

[mining]

Well, TC you can't use inside cradles, SL you can.

true lol...they can use it just BEFORE entering in it...and use it in all outside PvP..wich we can't

Enter then use then exit? Heh.

[Daltian]

To be honest +3 ab/ac/saves is seriously op. Compared to MA and NC it is OP. Compared to SL/TC its ridicously OP.
It's not like AO was weak without it. Yes NC token is great too but its suposed to fix some weakneses NC has due to limited class choices.
AO one strenghtens already extremelly strong melee presence AO has.
It isn't a gamebreaking advantage but my opinion is that it is a way too much.
But then again, after a decade of not having jobs it might be fair that they get something as OP as that.

[Nyeleni]

He doesn't have to lie, Hond. He might just use classes which already have true seeing as a spell somewhere. Really don't try to attack other opinions like you do lately. It won't help your cause. Besides not mastering the english language (at least you express yourself well enough).

Never said he was lying...just comparing +4spot/listen/hide with +3AB/AC/saves sound me like hypocrit...nothing more...

Sometimes we just have to accept that life or this game isn't fair and just .

that just why, i'm trying to convince the persons who can make it a bit more fair, and not to make it more unfair...

A hypocrite is by definition a liar, a pretender, a fraud etc. And yes, it's only right that you try to convince others about your understanding. Nevertheless, I think we have a lot of hijacking threads here (not only you, among others certainly myself). I'd prefer sending the devs a pm though, if you feel strongly about something...
Lobbying on the forum isn't the way to go imo.

[mining]

If you want to convince me, do this:

Make a post. Lay down the facts. Cite examples. Have someone not yourself agree with you.

Bam, instantly 99% more likely to convince me because you have evidence, you have an explanation, and you have someone else saying "Yeah, maybe he's right." Any 3 of these is still like 90% better.

[Rufio]

I also think that +3 ab/ac/saves is very overpowered. Just using that token can turn an average meleer into a good meleer, and a good meleer into a monster meleer. The only other faction that gets anything that even touches ab and ac is the MA aura token, but it is -2 ab/ac, doesn't touch saves, and has drawbacks (it dispels the ab and ac drain from curse song and bigby 5). The AO token boosts ALL of the critical stats even more than the MA token drains and has no drawbacks.