It'd be pretty neat to nerf stunning fist

[Daltian]

I must say that giving option of only 4 or 5 feats is nerfing it a bit too much. Not sure where the sweet spot would be but i doubt it's there.
Let's say a character with 9 feats gets 60 stun DC. He will have 95% chance of stunning someone with 40 fort which is not great fort save but I'd say minimum you are alowed to have if you want to complain about stun. If you have lower you deserve to be chain stunned.
Of course we didn't calculate the chance to miss the stun due to concealment.
With 50% conceal(and blind fight) your chance drops to 71.3% chance to stun.
Now if your DC went down to 50 with 4 feats your chance to stun after concealment goes down to 34% which is very low.

You need to consider that lots of people have more then 40 fort save and that since 34% even at 40 fort makes it so unreliable enemy wouldn't be chain stunned so your chance to hit would go down even more since now you would have to consider AC into calculation even after first stun.
I say one should go slow and first delevel down to 7 feats, see how it goes. You can always delevel more if needed.
If you go down to 4 feats right away and then see its too much you will have to manually delevel every stuner to help them get to 6 or 7 feats. Or just tell them to live with it and make a new char, or relevel the same one again by themselves.
Anyway, I think small steps are better solution.

[Lokey]

You're allowed to put wis on your stunners and should to have a decent dc Malik ran one with no imp stun feats that was feared after all.

Pfff we have computers to do this stuff. You'd delevel when they enter, and toss a marker explanation item on. If the character is dead to the user, they could talk to a dm about tomes used and stuff like that.

[Korr]

Well why not a step at a time. See what you can do for nullifying the chain effect. Seems if you can grab if someone is stunned you can stop it after 2 rounds (I say 2 because the first round isnt much, but even 1 is PnP) then let that get tested... if thats not enough then try delaying the stuns. If thats not enough then start dropping the DC?

[Daltian]

You're allowed to put wis on your stunners and should to have a decent dc Malik ran one with no imp stun feats that was feared after all.

Pfff we have computers to do this stuff. You'd delevel when they enter, and toss a marker explanation item on. If the character is dead to the user, they could talk to a dm about tomes used and stuff like that.

That is exactly what I was saying. For example, lets say my char Stunner Joe has 10 feats now.

Using my practice you make it so he is deleveled on login down to 7 feats. We test it for a month and if we don't like it you can delevel us on login down further to lets say 6, test some more and so on...

Now using suggestion of going instantly to 4 feats, you auto delevel all toons to 4 feats, test it a bit, find out its maybe too much but you can't do nothing automatically now since on login you can't test who was deleveled from more then 4 feats. You are stuck at doing it manually or not doing it at all.

[Delisha Zrazorian]

If the character is dead to the user, they could talk to a dm about tomes used and stuff like that.

good idea! As with all my characters, both my stunners have taken all six +2 books... and would be a shame to waste them on crippled toons

[Mixtli]

I like both ideas. Cap on feats (IV or V) and stopping chain stun.

And on the subject of nerfed toons - getting an option to re-level is much more than most of us ever got, so take what you can get...

[mining]

I like both ideas. Cap on feats (IV or V) and stopping chain stun.

And on the subject of nerfed toons - getting an option to re-level is much more than most of us ever got, so take what you can get...

Yah, I mean, if your toon's only saving grace is having DC 60 stun, you're doing it wrong .

[Delisha Zrazorian]

And on the subject of nerfed toons - getting an option to re-level is much more than most of us ever got, so take what you can get...

so we built a 426 Hemi with a high performance cam... and now we get to re-build it with a standard camshaft

and be happy about it?

[Bargeld]

*Attack of Opportunity* Nerf Stick +1 HITS Delisha Zrazorian for -1 toon.

[Daltian]

Yah, I mean, if your toon's only saving grace is having DC 60 stun, you're doing it wrong .

I don't really agree with this. While some characters are built to be all around good others are built to be great at one thing and often sacrifice other aspects. Stunners are the later ones since stun is used both offensive and defensive(no one can attack you while he is stunned.
That being said, if stun is nerfed to oblivion and becomes unusable it wont be end of the world. We all had nerfed characters and as Mixtli said we will deal with it, we've done it before.

[Delisha Zrazorian]

*Attack of Opportunity* Nerf Stick +1 HITS Delisha Zrazorian for -1 toon.

hehehe!

[Eldaquen]

Well why not a step at a time. See what you can do for nullifying the chain effect. Seems if you can grab if someone is stunned you can stop it after 2 rounds (I say 2 because the first round isnt much, but even 1 is PnP) then let that get tested... if thats not enough then try delaying the stuns. If thats not enough then start dropping the DC?

Small steps isn't how NS4 traditionally reacts to things. For example a GRU was added and took vine mine away for more than a year, then left the spell a mere shadow of itself.

I say bring back the GRU to absorb all stun attempts until a water downed solution is decided on!

[mining]

Yah, I mean, if your toon's only saving grace is having DC 60 stun, you're doing it wrong .

I don't really agree with this. While some characters are built to be all around good others are built to be great at one thing and often sacrifice other aspects. Stunners are the later ones since stun is used both offensive and defensive(no one can attack you while he is stunned.
That being said, if stun is nerfed to oblivion and becomes unusable it wont be end of the world. We all had nerfed characters and as Mixtli said we will deal with it, we've done it before.

Well, your CoT stunners (with a feat nerf) would still have good spot, good AB, reasonable AC, and decent speed. They'd not have DC 60, but they'd still be great vs HiPSers, PMs and other DR style toons in addition to bad fort enemies.

[Daltian]

True enough. Just wanted to say that some builds can survive the nerf and some can't depending on what you build them for. My stunners are lucky enough to be based on CoT which itself gives enough power to survive the nerf.
Stun definitely needs a nerf, however it's done. When I think about it, after I made my stunner I used it exclusively in defense. No matter what build I made after it, when I needed to defend I always went back to stunner. And the fact that it's so much better then anything else shows that it needs a nerf.

[Nocturne]

So what you're saying is: Nerf CoTs so they can't take Imp Stunning fist feats?