It'd be pretty neat to nerf stunning fist

[mining]

Moot point,

[18:55] <MrAsimov> i hate to differ with authority, but if you apply EffectImmunity(IMMUNITY_TYPE_STUN) to an object it is immune to stun fist
[19:05] <MrAsimov> ...or at least the stun component of it. failing the save doesn't not leave the target stunned
[19:10] <@Mining> wat
[19:11] <MrAsimov> wat?
[19:11] <@Mining> "Only immunity to critical hits and immunity to stun will prevent the stun from stunning fist. "
[19:11] <@Mining> You seem to be right,.
[19:12] <MrAsimov> i am right. i tested it
[19:12] <MrAsimov> wrote a script to apply it to an npc and tested stun fist before and after
[19:13] <@Mining> Nice.
[19:13] <@Mining> Very, very nice.
[19:13] <@Mining> That is possibly something we can work with.
[19:14] <MrAsimov> as i said. the save still was made, but even failing the save didn't stun it
[19:15] <MrAsimov> and not failing the save when it had 8 fort vs the dc 50 stun i was using was unlikely. hehe

Assuming that Asi didn't pick a zombie (:P) we may have a good way to go.

[Monkey]

Nerfing could reduce:
A. Total number of stuns,
B. Stun DC,
C. Ability to keep a target stunned for more than 3 rounds.

So what are we trying to prevent?
A. One stunner being able to wipe out a 5-toon raiding party solo?
B. One stunner being able to easily kill any build without high 50s fort?
C. One stunner being able to take down a really tough tank with repeated stuns?

What I enjoy most about this server is the team aspect. Play well as a team and you'll level fast (until you hit the high 30s). Play better as a raiding or defending team and you'll beat an evenly matched group of rivals.

Stunning fist should still be a useful way to immobilize an enemy, but the stunner should have a hard time killing that enemy by himself. If that enemy's allies are paying attention, there should be a relatively easy way for them to remove the stun without getting stunned in the process, and without the victim getting re-stunned instantly.

Nerfing damage from all the fighting gloves might accomplish that first part. The stunner could swap out the gloves and use another weapon, but wouldn't be as effective a hitter without focuses in that weapon and landing more stuns would be difficult.

Items with a clarity spell might be a good answer for the second part, though the spell should probably not be long lasting. As it is, Clarity is a low level Bard/Cleric/Wiz/Sorc spell that people probably aren't casting enough in party buffs.

[Snookz Eaglin]

Let the ideas flow!

A successful stun deals 100 hp damage to self.

[Ogami]

Now that I (and friends) have a lot of toons with 55+ fort, I don't see any more stunfister around.

[Monkey]

A successful stun deals 100 hp damage to self.

Nice. Or maybe the stunner also gets stunned for a round or two, as a way of effectively lowering stun duration 1v1.

[Delisha Zrazorian]

The ugly, unholy Nerf

*steps up on her soapbox*

Nerf is a slang term for when a module creator or another developer changes something to weaken it.
For example, changing the spell bull's strength to give only 2 ability points instead of 1d4+1 might be referred to as "nerfing" it — the opposite of buff.

Buff refers to module developer changing the rules to enhance something. For example, changing the spell bull's strength
to give 2d6 ability points instead of 1d4+1 might be referred to as "buffing" it -- the opposite of nerf.

I first heard the term nerf form SharonaCurves, developer, creator and one of the original CEP team members,
who had this to say about the ugly, unholy nerf…

“I despise nerfing and those who conspire to do so. In my opinion, nerfing is laziness. If something is too powerful,
the simple, easy route is to nerf it. Whereas, the responsible builder looks for other viable solutions.” SharonaCurves – Queen of Eternal Destiny.

While I will agree that some minor nerfing may indeed have been necessary early on in NS to create more balance for PvP, in the ensuing ten years NS4 has been nerfed to death!

Give it a freakin break!

The recent unwarranted Bigsby nerf drove off several long time players… I know this for a fact since they emptied all their PCs / mules
and gave all their gear to Fury to help fight the spiders lovers. Then deleted all their toons and left the server.

Why drive people off when this completely unnecessary? What does accomplish other than hard feelings?

If the goal is to weaken the game, piss people off, drive more old-time experienced players off the server and start another
flame war on the forums, well then your nerfing philosophy is right on tract!

If the goal is, however, to create a better, more balanced game intended to keep the old players and entice the new…
then build some new epic runs where new epic gear can be found… if your issue is with HIPSers, then provide some new
items with higher spot… if you’re worried about the domination of Stunners then offer up some new gear that helps protect against stunning…

I can think of a ba-zillion things that could be done to improve the NS4 experience… with nerfing at the very bottom of the list,
right underneath “shoots self in head”.

*Steps down from soapbox*

[mining]

The reason we nerf in preference to buffing is because of power creep.

Builds we have now are way better than builds from two years ago, etc. and gear creep is brutal as well - when I started playing, Black Lord SS was considered valuable, whereas now everyone has half a dozen.

If we buff spot like crazy to deal with HiPS - assassins get shafted. And we can't buff their hide more, because we need to work in engine limitations.

If we used haks, we'd have a lot more freedom, but it's core to neversummer that new players can login and start playing straight away.

Also, I thought we were well past the bigby nerf - I mean, seriously? Most people I've heard from prefer new bigby to old after getting used to it. Old bigby was bad design - hard countered specific builds, had very arcane mechanics, and didn't do what you'd expect it to do - ESF conj rogue/cleric could bigby 7 as well as a wizard.

then build some new epic runs where new epic gear can be found…

We are. Its freaking awesome. Its hard, its tough, and the rewards are there.

if your issue is with HIPSers, then provide some new
items with higher spot

The issue with doing this is that capping spot is already ridiculously easy - all it does is incentivize HiPSers to build more hide so they can't be seen at people's +50s unless they're full spot focused - which is what we have now. Our issue with HiPS isn't with how good it is - its that you can spam it on no CD to lag the server, reset action queues, and HiPS from people with spot=hide. Its dumb, and poor design from bioware.

Similarly, the issue with buffing up fort to deal with stun is that it then cripples every other fort ability in the game.

Ideally, you could make an optimal toon with saves in the high 50s to be completely immune to stun. Fantastic. And you can. But at the moment, people are making *all* of their builds to be hard to stun - defeating the entire purpose of having stun! If a mechanic is so powerful that it is causing its own demise - it's better for both stunners and regular players (who don't want to be forced into specific builds just to be able to play against a stunner.
The thing with stun is that you're either immune to it (fort, crit immune, 85 AC and edodge and enough spot to see HiPSing stunners, whatever), or you cannot do anything from between the times the stunner hits you first, and hits you last. Then you get to press the respawn button.

I mean, I don't know. I think stun is the most frustatingly poorly designed feat in the game. Even moreso than HiPS in some ways - HiPS is dynamic, you can fight a HiPSer. Stun is flat, you win or you lose, and if you lose you keep losing. You can stack the DC obscenely high, get dozens of uses, and attack out of HiPS, KD(PF) or with CoT AB to actually hit enemies.

Anyway, to quote a man I quite admire, Morello "Nerf Master" Suck Town:

The short-sighted solution that makes people rejoice is to buff up. You'll get the crowd's cheers when you do, but you'll slowly rot the game with this approach. Even with the (largely misleading) perception that we just continuously nerf things, power overall in the game has gone up steadily.

This is what he said about a game called League of Legends, and its absolutely true for NS4 too.
If I go through the changelog for the past 5 pages:

I found 6 nerfs, 13 buffs and 2 tweaks. If you want to split tweaks into nerfs and buffs: 9 nerfs, 17 buffs.
The thing is, buffs make it into your mindset, and becomes your default, but a nerf from a year ago? "If it weren't for that nerf, I would've won that fight"

[mining]

Now that I (and friends) have a lot of toons with 55+ fort, I don't see any more stunfister around.

Also, this is what I'm talking about. In order to even deal with stun fist, you require fort score which some builds will never be able to get, just to compete.

[dethonlegs]

A pure fighter's stun fist is the weakest of the lot. 12 attempts and you waste most of them just trying to land a hit. No sneak damage, no divine damage, just whatever is on the gloves. When you do hit and they have bludge resists, they take next to no damage. If they have any type of damage shield on you will be taking more damage than them. Better hope it's some type of low HP build as your never going to kill it otherwise. When all stuns are used your next useless.

Rumble is a nice assist to getting an enemy prone but it's a one trick pony and wont work against a STR build.

If all stun builds were as limited as the above I dont think we would be having this conversation.

[mining]

A pure fighter's stun fist is the weakest of the lot. 12 attempts and you waste most of them just trying to land a hit. No sneak damage, no divine damage, just whatever is on the gloves. When you do hit and they have bludge resists, they take next to no damage. If they have any type of damage shield on you will be taking more damage than them. Better hope it's some type of low HP build as your never going to kill it otherwise. When all stuns are used your next useless.

Rumble is a nice assist to getting an enemy prone but it's a one trick pony and wont work against a STR build.

If all stun builds were as limited as the above I dont think we would be having this conversation.

I agree - fighter has one of the more balanced stuns - high DC, 1 good way to get it off, but no real free build damage on it. Probably ~same AB as CoT stunner, but worse saves, slightly higher AC but less damage, etc.

[Daral0085]

Even without damage, fighter stun is still ~30 rounds of "nap time", so it's still extremely powerful. You don't need to go CoT to get unresistable damage, too. You could do something like fighter/monk/cleric or fighter/monk/pally and take divine feats to get 8 APR and 10+ divine damage per hit. With pally, you get a massive saves booster too. If I wanted to make a CoT-like stunner without being in NC, I would probably make that. Fighter/monk/pally is NC and RK-only, of course.

[Amoenotep]

there is also a monk glove that does like divine/magic +1 damage or something that always gets through.

when i first started lagnars hammer was the baddest asst thing around and we'd fight in RK just to get one.

i'd say limit the epic feat to cut the dc in half..that would help.

if we can make another work around too (nwnx plugin i want it damn it) we should look there too.

[mining]

Even without damage, fighter stun is still ~30 rounds of "nap time", so it's still extremely powerful. You don't need to go CoT to get unresistable damage, too. You could do something like fighter/monk/cleric or fighter/monk/pally and take divine feats to get 8 APR and 10+ divine damage per hit. With pally, you get a massive saves booster too. If I wanted to make a CoT-like stunner without being in NC, I would probably make that. Fighter/monk/pally is NC and RK-only, of course.

At least other classes struggle to get +9 free AB

[Rufio]

A pure fighter's stun fist is the weakest of the lot. 12 attempts and you waste most of them just trying to land a hit. No sneak damage, no divine damage, just whatever is on the gloves. When you do hit and they have bludge resists, they take next to no damage. If they have any type of damage shield on you will be taking more damage than them. Better hope it's some type of low HP build as your never going to kill it otherwise. When all stuns are used your next useless.

Rumble is a nice assist to getting an enemy prone but it's a one trick pony and wont work against a STR build.

If all stun builds were as limited as the above I dont think we would be having this conversation.

In a 1-on-1 situation I'd almost agree, but when it is team-vs-team that disable is huge. Your party mates should have no trouble killing people off even if you personally aren't doing much damage. You could always switch over to a melee weapon for damage as well.

What I don't agree with is the effectiveness of the rumble token in a 1-on-1 situation. Your rumble should still be pretty reliable against str builds as long as your discipline token is running. Most str builds don't have much more discipline than dexers unless they can wear molech scales or are pure fighters with discipline tokens of their own. It isn't going to be a sure-thing KD like a str based fighter rumble, but you should still have favorable odds.

[Lokey]

Our philosophy of what to beef/what to nerf and what's OP/UP is complicated as are our balancing yardsticks (i.e. like our two favorite AO builds we've never seen made in the wild, although 1 is probably going to be discovered soon and then there's going to be tears). Happy to discuss but not in this thread.