Feedback request: Turn Undead

[mining]

I want your feedback, as players, what you think of turn undead (including various flavours, i.e. domains, planar turning).

Do you think its weak?
Strong?
Too much investment for not enough reward?
Too binary? (works or doesn't)
Too complex to invest in? (lot of numbers, lot of dice rolls, you don't get to see any)

Any other thoughts?

[Alkapwn]

Evil/Good domains kind of suck because the only effect opposing Alignment & only Outsider on top of that.
Planar turning Good/Neutral is pretty devastating , Evil planar turning not even comparable really.
Turn Undead as pvm pretty much in HoD only really becomes useful at high 30 lvls and really its a low to mid 30's leveling area. Again Evil turning not so good or effective. The Rebuke undead function pretty much has no use at all a Level 40 pure evil cleric cant command even Icy Crypt undead. Be nice to command something with a decent CR.
Planar Turning is the most expensive feat to get 25wis 25cha req. Then have the cleric/bg lvls to have it be effective. Even with Acolytes Ammy still pretty 'meh' for Evil. Good on the other hand is like having a Pure fighter token spamming button

Construct(Destruction) and Elemental(Fire,Earth,Water,Air) Turning don't seem to work on anything as far as i could tell
Tested with 34clcEarthDomain in planes and 14clc/22bg destruction domain in IoD

[BlkMamba]

Current stucture would be decent IF it worked the same all the way across the board,
in short, make it no matter what alignment, it has the same effect,
I'm pretty sure, even the evil folk would just enjoy turning, its better than whats goin on now

Just a thought
Mamba..

[Rufio]

From a pvp perspective, I'd like to see it less "binary" as you are saying. At the moment, getting a +2 to +4 turn level adjust is pretty automatic, and of course you can always turn again if you were really unlucky on your roll somehow. That turn check system just wasn't designed for players with +15 charisma modifiers and 18 turn attempts per day. Of course it only works against planar enemies and takes a heavy investment, so it should be effective, I just don't think it should always work the first time.

Evil turning is ok, -10 ab/ac/saves is pretty devastating, it is just silly that a lesser restore can cure it. I don't even know how long the drain lasts because I always drink a restore potion immediately.

Good/Evil domain turning probably should suck though. One domain is a small investment.

[Rufio]

After something is successfully turned, how long are they immune to further turn attempts?

I was trying to look that up and couldn't find it anywhere. I think it is like 1-2 minutes, and unsuccessful attempts don't start this timer. Granted, for good/neutral turning you need to have some really good damage reduction to survive getting turned just one time if you are targeted while on the ground.

[Alkapwn]

Evil turning is ok, -10 ab/ac/saves is pretty devastating, it is just silly that a lesser restore can cure it. I don't even know how long the drain lasts because I always drink a restore potion immediately.

-10 eh? 38cha and 25 wisdom on a cleric with no autoquicken and 2 books . That toon would be lucky if it could sruvive the round nonetheless devestate anything. Compared to a Good turner who could dump 900dmg on to a prone toon. Might look good on paper but the reality of it just sucks donkey .

[Rufio]

38 cha? Well there is your problem.

[Alkapwn]

38 cha? Well there is your problem.

You would need a buffed 50cha to get -10 ab/ac/saves

[Rufio]

Oh, I didn't realize it was based on your charisma score. I always thought it was a flat -10. Well that does suck more than I thought.

[report]

I've invested 5 books and thought i could spend a +4 and delevel it again to improve ac and ab, on a planar turner toon in RK.

But is so complicate to use that is pretty understandable why you don't see many around. It has many buffs and parameters to keep an eye on thats why isn't popular.

I've seen two so far, one from alasteir one from eldaquen (but the second doesn't look melee focused) , guess mine is the third (and probably the only in rk). Working on an AO one now but there is a problem with the discipline: it wont be as good as rk or nc. So I might not start it unless i find a load of +4 books.

Don't think is too strong, considering the investment. Its just fun, had fun moments with it, (Rufio might remember the raid vs his MA meleer mage), Some glorious hammer crits with divine might up. Or turn a pure fighter guy that was 100% sure he had you etc.. But thats all really.

Works and not works exactly as supposed to, levels, multiclassing or being pure both affect it. Saves are ok but the other stats are bad, ab hardly gets past 58 with +2 books (at least for rk, i suppose NC models do better but mine isn't turnable so a vs fight would be fun)



As the wiki says pally levels count less than cleric levels and this looks ok, because you have a plus for your being pure (low disciplin). Being pure gives you some other obvious things, party hellball, 52 spell resist, decent summon etc.

[Frendel]

In the books, Turn Undead for Good/Neutral makes the undead flee. For evil characters who use Rebuke Undead, the undead stand in awe. Maybe the evil version here could be made into some type of high dc Sanctuary type thing. If I had my way though, I'd make it the same as the good/neutral version. I want to knock Aasamir to the dirt. At the very least, could it be made to where just drinking a restore pot doesn't remove the Rebuke damage please?

[mining]

So:
Wishlist:
More transparent, simpler to use/understand.
Also look at scaling - +4 mods based on silly rolls is silly.
Fix some of the power unbalance (via restore no longer affecting evil or through evil being different)
Fix up interactions with evil turning and undead
Look at what domains are doing

[Chernobyl_Glow]

To Report:

The Planar Turner character that Archael made was pretty awesome. I'm sure the others you mentioned are great too but they are ALL just experiments/novelty characters. My point is that I never thought Ciel shined individually and he didn't try to. He didn't build for good AB/AC or others stuff. It's semi-required to sacrifice all other build attributes to make a passable Planar Turner. I don't even think he carried a weapon. If planar turning failed then he was just a healing Cleric basically. 1 vs 1 he couldn't kill you even if Planar Turning worked. So if you are solo raiding or solo defending you'll want to log a different character.

However, while he didn't have an "I WIN" button (no one should), I might say it was pretty close to a "WE WIN" button. When in a party, if he turned them - we killed them - we all rofl'd. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't like we'd win 3 vs 10 battles. But it definitely made a difference in a balanced party. But he was incredibly hard to level and pretty much useless otherwise. I think he used 2, +4 books and considering that that much investment you might want more than a one trick pony. BTW, my you seem to have incredible optimism regarding books.

Best of luck.

- Glow -

[Rufio]

Planar turners can be done with 0 books, particularly with access to Aasimars, but a few +2 books makes it easier and allows you to build in more features.

A good/neutral planar tuner should be able to kill people in a 1 on 1 situation. Turning does a good amount of damage and you've got a few full rounds of hits against their flatfooted ab, so just equip a morningstar and whack them with your +14 or whatever divine might. Only the characters built for damage reduction will survive. You always have spells available to finish them off if they manage to get up as well. In a team situation the cleric might be getting targeted by those who cannot be turned, but that is when you just have your teammates kill who is turned.

[report]

Does the actual evil turn last longer than good turn? I think it does. But what if you can't great restore? Example: Turn a pure fighter, inflict -10 saves penality, get your abyss trident... Or like the example of the pure cleric who turned the people for party, mix the turner with an imploder- stunner- assassin, enchantment mage. Mass ownage like good turn? Just in a different way...