Druid / Shifter Build

[Toothpicks]

Hey all,

First timer to the server and game, having a blast so far! I started my first char as a kind of a jack-of-all-trades shifter, just to play around with all of the different forms and see what was the most fun. I've come a long way so far: from shifting into a badger and fleeing in a blind panic when I saw another hostile character in the dark forest, all the way to lvl 35, where... actually I still like to shift into a badger and flee in a blind panic somewhat often. So he's a bit mediocre, and I'd like to make a new one that's a better build now.

Rufio's Shifting Guide is super helpful, (and he himself equally so in-game), but I'm still a bit uncertain about whether or not I know enough to start a new char and have him turn out reasonably well. So, I'll type up the progression that I've tried to plan out, and I've got some questions after that. Forgive me for needing a lot of help here, the learning curve of this game seems a bit steep at the beginning. I know I probably don't know enough to pose a more interesting or challening build here, so I'm happy to reward anyone's consideration with links to entertaining youtube videos in the category of his or her choosing, or perhaps any assistance or gimpy Risen Lord RDs I can provide when you see me on the server.

Basically I'm thinking primarily a dragon, with druid spells mostly for buffing, and a dose of shifter to use undead shape for lvling up and also to get the fear aura which I understand is pretty good. The Relic stuff sounds fun, I'm hoping to make a char that can participate.


251 Toothpicks

Regular Human? (see below)
Druid 29 / Shifter 11

Attributes
Str 10
Dex 10
Con 12
Wis 18
Int 14
Chr 8

Progression
1 Druid 1, Alertness, Combat Casting
2 Druid 2
3 Druid 3, Knockdown
4 Druid 4, Wis19
5 Druid 5
6 Druid 6, Expertise
7 Druid 7
8 Druid 8, Wis20
9 Druid 9, Improved Expertise
10 Druid 10
11 Shifter 1
12 Shifter 2, Wis21, Disarm
13 Shifter 3
14 Shifter 4
15 Shifter 5, Improved Disarm
16 Shifter 6, Wis22
17 Shifter 7
18 Shifter 8, Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike
19 Shifter 9
20 Shifter 10, Wis23
21 Shifter 11, Undead Shape
22 Druid 11
23 Druid 12
24 Druid 13, Wis24, Armor Skin
25 Druid 14
26 Druid 15,
27 Druid 16, Epic Prowess
28 Druid 17, Wis 25
29 Druid 18
30 Druid 19, Great Wisdom I (26)
31 Druid 20
32 Druid 21, Wis27
33 Druid 22, Hell Ball
34 Druid 23
35 Druid 24, Great Wisdom II (28)
36 Druid 25, Wis29, Great Wisdom III (30)
37 Druid 26
38 Druid 27
39 Druid 28, Dragon Shape, Dragon Knight (or Mummy Dust? which is better? which would make a better buddy-cop type story while I'm shifted as a dragon?)
40 Druid 29, Wis31

Naked Stats
AB: 25/20/15
AC: 16
HP: 360

Saves
Fort: 25
Reflex: 20
Will: 30

Skills
Concentration: 43
Discipline: 21
Spellcraft: 43
Spot 24
Tumble: 21
(102 skill points left that I don’t know what to spend on, suggestions?)


So, questions:
Of course, please critique the above build if you see anything that's a wrong guess or could be made better. Also, I tested this on the BoW server where they have that test tent that lets you lvl up, so also please let me know if you see something in the build that NS4 doesn't permit. I'm especially worried that I'm missing out on better feats to take, I read up on the wiki but might have missed some.

Is this an ok balance / progression of Druid and Shifter lvls? I'm still struggling to understand the effects on shapes that result from having a lot of lvls in either druid or shifter, or a balance. I didn't see what benefits I was getting after lvl 11 for the shifter, and taking so many lvls of druid made it easier to get more useful feats, especially towards the end. But maybe my undead shape will plain suck without more shifter lvls? I'm mostly interested in Dragon Shape, but I do need to fight all the way to lvl 39 before I get that.

Am I missing out on any good bonuses (that retain after shifting) by not yet knowing how subraces work? Is there one I should try with this build? Or another non-human race or subrace? If I'm reading the guide correctly, it seems to suggest that some racial bonuses do stay while shifting, and others don't.

Could I configure my base ability scores better? I know that shapes replace srt, dex, and con, but I still bumped them up to 10 because I was worried about ill effects, and more con so that my unshaped char has a better chance to flee if necessary. But it sounds like those three don't matter if I'm planning to be shifted most of the time, so could I use those points somewhere else to better effect?

Let's see, I feel like there are still other things I'm unsure of but this post is already a bit long and asking a lot of questions.

So thanks for reading, any consideration is appreciated big-time. Thanks for providing the server and community as well, I'm enjoying it.

[Shadowalker]

Allo there Toothpicks... Twig here, spoted you a few times in game (ive not been on much last months).

>First off Dragons are an intensive build, with some serious limitations. Therefore if you want a PvP Dragon, your going to want to morgage the tent. For PvP, and really helps in PvM, your dragon needs the feat Blinding Speed http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.ph ... ding_Speed . For that you need 25 dex minimum. So base build needs, 30 wis, 25 dex, 12-14 int (skill points). For this your need atleast 2-3 books. Books are items that drop and once used (one time use) will increase a specific attribute of the toon that uses it http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.ph ... gory:Books . For this build wis, dex and int are key. Using a race with dex and wisdom bonus will help this (wild elf http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.php?title=Wild_Elf , snirf http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.ph ... virfneblin ). If you want a strong PvP, I would wait till you have the above requirements.

Additonal thoughts below.

>Dragon fear is based upon shifter levels (wiki doesnt reflect the shifter level bonus), so go fear and use 28-30 shifter levels (and watch others flee like a badger).. or drop fear and go pure druid (party freindly hell ball and undispellable buffs (limited))

>With a 30 wisdom requirement, its a shame to not choise a race with keen sences and max spot (pvp bonus). Wild elf is the chioce for easier leveling, and the wis bonus will help. Drow Elf http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.php?title=Drow and Snirfvblevin Gnome, are slower leveling options. Snirv is a common preferance for it provides a bonus to wisdom and dex, +4 deflection ac (doesnt stack with same, but provides ac bonus up to lvl 25 gear), racial SR (drow also has) and natural 50% concealment (pvp and pvm bonus).

>If you pick the shifter version, then I recomend outsider form over undead, both for leveling and pvp. (See Rufio Shifter guide)

I will try to login and talk to you to get a better feel of what suits you best.

Others will offer more or possibly diffrent suggestions, just smile and humor them.

In truth those like Rufio contributed to the 'shifter series' of Twigs.

(Rufio this post completes Twigs contract of adoration and praise for the Twiw'stien build)

[Opie Crimeria]

A +2 Wis book or a sub race that has a +2 wis bonus would be helpful. This way your build does not have to waste the last ability raise to an odd number (end with WIS = 31). A Great Wis feat can be dropped for lots of feats to help out (EER: fire/cold/etc, epic saves feat, etc).

Also may want to move a Shifter level into the late levels (L39 or L40). This way you can dump some of those extra skill points into spot. Then could use a feat for ESF: Spot; especially if you have a keen race. Probably dump some points into Animal Empathy. This could be helpful to level by getting some of the strong wild critters in NS4. Lore/ max Search could be options for any extra left over points.

Hell Ball will KD you and everyone else unless the caster has at least 35 caster levels. Drop HB for something else unless you go at least 35 druid levels.

May want to shift 3 shifter levels to epic instead of pre-epic to raise BAB by one (12D/8Sh).

[Rufio]

I got this! Since you are new, I'll try to be detailed.

Ok, so there is certainly some room for improvement. A dragon is a good first build though, Easy offense without much fuss. It has downsides too (mobility issues, no range, no spells, no item use), but it is hard to mess a dragon up too badly.


Leveling Progression
Your leveling progression is not quite optimal at the moment. Ab is very important to build for on any melee character, so you want to get the highest base attack you can before going into epic levels. Druid and shifter are both 3/4 bab classes, so once every 4 levels they will not gain ab starting at level 1. In order to maximize your ab, you want to take these classes in multiples of 4 before level 21. In your case, 12 druid 8 shifter would be best. You also will want to take those 8 shifter levels as early as possible to get the shifter forms earlier, which will make leveling easier.

In epic levels you should take your last shifter level at level 39 or 40. This will allow you to put full ranks into the spot skill, which is very useful in relic combat. You can actually take undead shape, construct shape, or outsider shape at level 10 shifter if you take that shifter level on a level that grants you a feat. You could take shifter 9 somewhere between level 21 and 23 and then shifter 10 at level 24 so you can take an epic shape feat on that level.

If you want more feats, 12 druid 28 shifter gets you the most possible feats, which makes more complicated dragons easier, like blinding speed dragons. 12 druid is still enough for most of the basic buffs. 40 druid is another alternative that gets you more feats, but a pure druid without spot or the fear aura is a different type of dragon build.


About undead shape (bringing this up now because my comment might affect your race and starting ability scores):
This shape is very good for leveling, but not very useful later on. If you can work it out so you can get 27 wisdom by level 24, you can take construct shape, which is much stronger and very effective even at level 40. 27 wisdom by level 24 might seem like a lot, but it is doable. If you use a race with +2 wisdom so you can start with 20 wisdom, take wisdom at every level-up through level 24 and take a great wisdom feat at level 21, you will have 27 wisdom and will be able to take construct shape. Alternatively, you can use a +2 wisdom book if you have one so you don't need the great wisdom at 21. You could also wait until 27 for construct shape so you don't have to use a feat or a wis book. Avoiding the feat might be best for the build later on so you can use it for something else.


Race Selection:
Anything with +2 wisdom is a good starting point. You are right that some racial bonuses do and do not shift, but it isn't much concern for a dragon. Physical stats are all overridden to the dragon's stats, so those don't matter, and mental stats are only needed for things outside of being shifted like skill points and feat pre-requisites (wisdom sort of matters for your fear aura and spot score, but since no base race has a wisdom bonus or penalty, you will always get your race's wisdom bonus). If you want to be a better spotter, I would take Wild Elf or Svirfneblin for their keen senses. Wild elf is quicker to level and has +2 spot, but deep gnome gets 50% concealment and spell resist, which will keep you alive longer. If you aren't concerned about spotting so much, Githzerai is good for the +4 ac token, which works shifted. If you can stand waiting for construct shape a few more levels, Earth Genasi will give you 10/+8 dr and another +2 natural ac with its token at level 40, or Azerblood gives a fire damage shield token which is especially useful in construct shape.


Ability Scores:
As I said before, if you want to get construct shape early, you need as much wisdom as possible, so max it out. Otherwise, the only score you really need is int for skill points or certain feats. You can pretty much make every other skill an 8. Maybe you could add a few points of str to increase unshifted carrying capacity or con for more unshifted hp, but it isn't a big deal.

If you wanted to try it out, it is very popular to build dragons with blinding speed. It would work best with a +2 wis book, +2 dex book, and a race with +2 wis and dex (Wild Elf, Svirfneblin, Githzerai all have this) so you can start with 20 wis and 18 dex and then boost them to 22 and 20 with the books. The rest would go into int, and all the other stats would be dumped.

At level 40 you have an odd number in your wisdom. This isn't very efficient. Either put that level 40 bonus point in str for carrying capacity, or work out a way to get an even wisdom score. 32 should be doable.


Pre-Epic Feats:
Blind Fight is a glaring omission here. Blind Fight is essential for any melee character. Concealment is common, and blind fight significantly cuts down on your miss chance.

Combat Casting isn't needed. You aren't going to be doing much casting in combat, and a concentration score of 27 or better makes the combat casting feat useless (combat casting only applies to the 15+ spell level concentration check when casting defensively, not the concentration check when you take damage while casting).

Dragons get knockdown for free, so no need to take knockdown unless you are also going to take improved knockdown. I'd suggest going for improved knockdown. Dragons are huge and get a big knockdown bonus, so might as well take advantage of the improved knockdown bonus.

Disarm is pretty meh. Since dragons are unarmed, they don't get any weapon size bonuses on disarm attempts. I probably wouldn't take those feats.

If you have a leftover feat, skill focus: spot might be a good idea if you want to be able to spot. If you have room for 2 feats, weapon proficiency: unarmed and stunning fist are very good for pvp. You can get a stunning fist dc equal to your fear dc this way (dc 46 with 30 base wisdom). You might have to drop improved expertise for this, though improved expertise is a good defensive feat.


Epic Feats:
What I said earlier about undead shape applies here.

Don't take Hellball. Hellball knocks down and damages everyone (including the caster) unless you have 35 caster levels. It also doesn't do significant enough damage to use just for the damage, so people mainly use it to knock down opponents and get hits on them while they are down, but that isn't possible if you also knock down yourself and everyone in your party. If you chose to make a pure druid dragon, Hellball would be a great feat to take.

If you take a +2 wisdom race as suggested earlier, you won't need some of those great wisdom feats, which will free up some room for other feats.

You will probably want epic skill focus: discipline at level 39 with your last general feat. Players in relic combat probably won't kd you, but boss monsters will. I always recommend epic skill focus: discipline to any build really. On this build you have to take it at level 39 since you have cross-classed the whole way you don't have the skill pre-requisite until then.

If you want to be able to spot for pvp, take epic skill focus: spot. This is important, this feat can be the difference between never spotting something and always spotting something.

Dragon Knight is usually better than mummy dust, but both are on the weak-side without focuses. Conjuration focuses for the Dragon Knight and Necormancy focuses for Mummy Dust. Check out the Summons Guide, the Dragon Knight, and the Mummy Dust page for more info. You probably don't have the spare feats to focus on a summon, so just go with the dragon knight. If you are good, you can get a solar with 1 full heal per day that you can direct to use on you, so you have a source of healing while shifted in relic combat (potions are bad etiquette in pvp). The balor has the same thing if you are evil. The dragon knight summons can also spot.

If you took stunning fist earlier, you can take 1 improved stunning fist feat in epic levels, but you do need 19 dex for it. Any more than 1 requires fighter or monk levels. It might not work for you, but it is something worth considering.

Blinding speed would be taken here if you decided to try and build for it.


Skills:
Skills look good. Like I said earlier, just max your spot with your final shifter level at 40. Those leftover skill points could be used on general utility skills like open lock, hide/move silently (it would be funny to see a dragon appear from nowhere), and animal empathy (which works in Forest Home and Elysium). Nothing really crucial here though.


I guess that is it. Good luck with the build.

[Rufio]

Dear god, I wrote a novel.

[Daral0085]

I'll try to be detailed

Duly noted.

[mining]

At level 40 you have an odd number in your wisdom. This isn't very efficient. Either put that level 40 bonus point in str for carrying capacity, or work out a way to get an odd wisdom score. 32 should be doable.

Jeez Rufio, way to go make a mistake!

Anyway, my two cents: My first 40 was a dragon, its an awesome build. Mine was 24 druid /16 shifter, and I quite liked it.

[Toothpicks]

Wow, thanks for all of the good info guys! Clearly I've got a lot to learn here.

Hmm, I'm still excited to take a shot at a better dragon build with all of the good suggestions here, but I'll need to find some more books first it looks like. Hopefully I'll get some positive book karma and stumble across some more, after I gave away the first one I found, traded away the second, and politely declined to roll for a +4 dex found in Ice Giants (I still rolled for the fun of it, and got an 82 vs a 20 or something, so whoops!).

So I think I might try a shifter build first. What are the main advantages of outsider shape vs construct? Construct is easier to build as a tank, maybe? It sounds like I should try a 12 druid 28 shifter Iron Golem, with Wild Elf, and then feats something like blind fight, imp. KD, skill focus spot, skill focus discp, epic weapon focus with scimitar, improved critical, prowess, maybe armor skin or some damage reduction feats. Let's see, I'll have to read a bit more to figure this out. What's a good way to test a character build in-game while still including subrace stats? Just use the console on a single player setup to duplicate the same effects?

Big thanks again! Let me see if I can come up with and post a shifter build worth critiquing, if any of y'all are interested in further doing so.

[mining]

A lot of us use the excellent CBC spreadsheet.

[frogofpeace]

This CBC spreadsheeet - it's awesome:

http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=ot ... ail&id=856

[Bargeld]

Based on his build progression he originally posted, I'm pretty sure he's using CBC already.

[Lokey]

Rufio's wrong on disarm, though I'm not sure about the exact peculiarities. Suffice to say a dragon is fine for disarming, but it's feats that could probably be better used elsewhere.

You're a druid in TC, there's no easier way to level to at least mid-20s and probably beyond that I can think of offhand.

[Toothpicks]

Hey, that character build calculator is a piece of work - extremely useful. Thanks! (I had used BoW's character test tent and then typed up the build before according to the convention as best as I could tell - the CBC is much better)

So what do you guys think about this as a Wild Elf Shifter specializing in Iron Golem? I was kind of unsure about finding good epic feats and bonus feats, so I took a bunch of electric resistance when I saw the golem's vulnerability to it, and then took Epic Fortitude and Reflexes because those two saves seemed low without them. Also, I'm not sure how useful undead shape would be here since I'd just be using it for lvls 25-27, but I wasn't sure what else to take there. And yes I was still tempted to get Dragon Shape at 40, but I will save that until I can really get a proper build for it.

Also with skills I wasn't sure if it would be better to dump points into hide & move silently (the way I did it here), or into animal empathy instead.

Druid(12), Shifter(28), Wild Elf

STR: 10
DEX: 10
CON: 10
WIS: 20 (30)
INT: 14
CHA: 6

Wild Elf: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)

01: Druid(1): Alertness
02: Druid(2)
03: Druid(3): Knockdown
04: Druid(4): WIS+1, (WIS=21)
05: Druid(5)
06: Druid(6): Weapon Focus: Scimitar
07: Druid(7)
08: Druid(8): WIS+1, (WIS=22)
09: Shifter(1): Blind Fight
10: Shifter(2)
11: Shifter(3)
12: Shifter(4): WIS+1, Improved Knockdown, (WIS=23)
13: Shifter(5)
14: Shifter(6)
15: Shifter(7): Improved Critical: Scimitar
16: Shifter(8): WIS+1, (WIS=24)
17: Druid(9)
18: Druid(10): Skill Focus: Spot
19: Druid(11)
20: Druid(12): WIS+1, (WIS=25)
21: Shifter(9): Armor Skin
22: Shifter(10)
23: Shifter(11)
24: Shifter(12): WIS+1, Epic Prowess, (WIS=26)
25: Shifter(13): Undead Shape
26: Shifter(14)
27: Shifter(15): Epic Weapon Focus: Scimitar
28: Shifter(16): WIS+1, Construct Shape, (WIS=27)
29: Shifter(17)
30: Shifter(18): Epic Fortitude
31: Shifter(19): Epic Energy Resistance: Electricity I
32: Shifter(20): WIS+1, (WIS=28)
33: Shifter(21): Epic Reflexes
34: Shifter(22): Epic Energy Resistance: Electricity II
35: Shifter(23)
36: Shifter(24): WIS+1, Epic Skill Focus: Spot, (WIS=29)
37: Shifter(25): Epic Energy Resistance: Electricity III
38: Shifter(26)
39: Shifter(27): Epic Skill Focus: Discipline
40: Shifter(28): WIS+1, Epic Energy Resistance: Electricity IV, (WIS=30)

Hitpoints: 320
Skillpoints: 258
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 28/30/24

Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +3, Mind Effects: +2, Fear: +2
BAB: 25
AB (max, naked): 29 (melee), 26 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 16/24
Spell Casting: Druid(6)
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Concentration 43(43), Discipline 21(31), Hide 33(33), Move Silently 20(20), Spellcraft 15(17), Spot 43(70), Tumble 21(21)

[Lt.Mad.Joe]

Not a bad build at all, I would however forget taking hide and Move Silent and put then into Listen instead as that helps you "spot things" you need both senses to locate the hidden opponent. If you have any points left over put them in Lore thats always helpful, you do not get the benifit of 21 tumble it only works in multiples of 5. With EDR no need to put it all into electrical, maybe some into sonic for those pesky Bards and fire for when you do take undead shape could be helpful. Epic listen as well if your going to be a spotter. Wait to get some Books to pump into it so you get more flexability.

Rufio and Twig I am sure can offer more advice, I've only ever had the one shifter.....its true they are lots of fun to play!

Good Luck and.... if you win the role I will let you have the book

[mining]

Rufio's wrong on disarm, though I'm not sure about the exact peculiarities. Suffice to say a dragon is fine for disarming, but it's feats that could probably be better used elsewhere.

Its the same as unarmed - so equivalent to disarming medium with medium or large with large.