I'd like Paladin

[Adventurer#1337]

like paladins and black guards get along in RK . In AO that can be done since dragon's pantheon has both Good and Evil deities (Bahamut and Tiamat). Its a complex matter, but they stay together for the pride of dragon kin i guess lol.

Paladins are better than wizards for ao. Build wizards in MA or RK, they come out better. AO looks more suited for cha based toons.

[Rufio]

I want Sorcerers in TC.

Paladins are the most faction-restricted class, which is odd for a base class, but it crazy to say that AO doesn't have many options or has weak builds available.

[mining]

I want Sorcerers in TC.

Paladins are the most faction-restricted class, which is odd for a base class, but it crazy to say that AO doesn't have many options or has weak builds available.

Largely because they make no sense in MASL (alignments) TC (No lawful good) or AO (Slavery + you're not getting 26 BAB AND divine dragon builds with godly saves )

But, on another note:

9 times out of 10 when somebody wants a class, its because they want to have a build they can already make 90% of in an OP state. For example, +2 AB + 15ish saves on a cleric/RDD dragon, or a little more AB or saves on other divine builds which only dip cleric for divine.

Wizards in AO aren't like that - it removes restrictions which are irksome for new players (non dorf/gnome good aligned wizard) while not impacting power levels of AO by *that* much.

[Daral0085]

I'll admit that adding wiz to a faction which already has sorc is not that much of a power buff, but it just seems strange that of all the factions to buff, you choose AO, the (what devs have already admitted) strongest faction on the server, basically.

[Amoenotep]

it was a reversal so we could have somewhere to shove those good aligned wizzies everyone wants to make.

[Midterm]

They can join the Devil Angel faction

[Adventurer#1337]

I'll admit that adding wiz to a faction which already has sorc is not that much of a power buff, but it just seems strange that of all the factions to buff, you choose AO, the (what devs have already admitted) strongest faction on the server, basically.

Correction: weakest faction of the server. You can see it by the relic counter if you are so concerned about pvp. You can see it looking at what players take to pvm, not a single AO toon.
Paladin and black guard are 2 classes that typically use the most of rdd, and you don't allow any of them. Forget about shifter dragons, they suck, Paladin will add variety and not any single OP build if you look at how powerful are cots, pms, or if you look at the awesome stats on shifters.

[Bargeld]

No one plays there cuz their jobs aren't finished. That is the only reason.

[Adventurer#1337]

Not really
Just look at shifters, dwd, palemasters, cots. People play them for the performance in pvm, not for the jobs. All of them got a purpose (except shifter that goes anywhere).
And yes, since you bring up jobs. "Almost" all of them have jobs that fit their prestige class (dwd could use some damage bonus like nc/tc/ma). Will Ao have jobs to fit their prc? Rdd in its conditions?
For AO i'd start from finding a decent class. Rdd dragon sucks, dragon claws do around 75 damage, if you resist fire like an azer and you have slash + pierce combo they will only do 30 damage. This without any form of dr on you. And the worst ever crit range 19-20.
Paladin/sorc/rdd, focused in scimitar will be a nice thing. ab in the mid 60 isn't op, saves in the 50 are lower than cots. Its still stunnable/crittable not like pm/shifters. Ac is 75 for 50 seconds, unlike certain palemasters that are sitting on 75 ac for all the time. No dr.

[mining]

I'll admit that adding wiz to a faction which already has sorc is not that much of a power buff, but it just seems strange that of all the factions to buff, you choose AO, the (what devs have already admitted) strongest faction on the server, basically.

Correction: weakest faction of the server. You can see it by the relic counter if you are so concerned about pvp. You can see it looking at what players take to pvm, not a single AO toon.
Paladin and black guard are 2 classes that typically use the most of rdd, and you don't allow any of them. Forget about shifter dragons, they suck, Paladin will add variety and not any single OP build if you look at how powerful are cots, pms, or if you look at the awesome stats on shifters.

Hrmm, lets base all our balance decisions on the past 3 months instead of the past 3 years.
Thats a genius idea, and will surely lead to factional balance throughout the future years of Neversummer.

I've said this before - AO gets no gods. They get no god builds. They do get every build in the game, bar a few, but they get melee builds which are great, mages which are great, and druid(dragon)/ranger builds, which are great.

Also:

"Rdd dragon sucks, dragon claws do around 75 damage"
what the ****? When did 75 damage a hit turn into bad? I'm familiar with dragons, and my god, they're not bad. You need to know how to use them, though - they're horrible skirmishers, and worse raiders.

and finally:
Only mid 60s AB // mid 50s saves?
I'm shocked, would've expected much better.
30 BAB + (5 base + 4 RDD + 5 level up + 2 great str + 6 magic cap + 1 book) 23 STR mod + 04 feats + 08 weapon + 03 DF + 03 prayer => 71 AB. Add in song, 75 AB. Thats pretty high.

Saves-wise... Fort is the only one that matters past about 40...
(4 base con, 1 race[earthgen is good, could go drow, why bother], 1 book, 10 cha mod (could have more or less) 10 epic saves, 12 preepic, 6 magic con bonus, 04 belt, 01 helm.) => 49. Add in epic fort, great fort preepic, and you're talking about 55 fort. Thats pretty high.

As for AC, well, you're talking about 70 AC as str based, dodge cap toon to start with. Add 4 RDD and 2 Egen for 76 AC. Not sure how much you'd end up with based on how much cha you actually have and what dodge AC you can scrounge. Maybe 74 worst case scenario.
74 AC, 71 AB, 55 fort... How does that sound remotely balanced on a str based toon? Dragons are super-fat and stuff (and shifter suckiness in general) and at their peak only got 67 AB and 74 AC.

[Adventurer#1337]

Long post lol, let's not get upset

75 turns into 30 just with the right shield and some fire dr.
30 lets make it 29 since i prefer to go 29 pal 1 sorc 10 rdd, 23 str mod? no. I'm going for blinding speed so its a 16 str mod.
how the hell are you calculating ab? you gotta redo everything. And no, we don't like half ogre, better an elf to spot.
And no ab is just your self buffed ab. no bard song no thanks.

I have the build here and saves are right as i've said them fort in the 50 , will a little less.

Earth gen no thanks no thanks. we want elf

I remind you about blinding speed again because in the meanwhile you might have forgot it.

Its balanced, weaker compared to pm cleric or cot. again.

[Rufio]

Talisid's flail does 70 damage per hit on average with a +18 str mod. Dragons have the highest non-crit melee damage per hit on the server, their weapons do two damage types, and they can use stunning fist.

When you are talking about the good pvm builds other factions have, you are really just referring to tank builds. Each alliance has 1 major tank build (dwds for AO/RK, constructs for TC/NC, and pale masters for MA/SL), but NC and SL don't really have comparable tanks either, a good barbarian build is the next closest thing.

The thing about RDD builds that is different from other prestige classes is that there is no magic formula for making a good one. A 10 level dip is a fantastic supplement to any str based melee build, and even some dexer builds, but you generally have to deal with limited feats and figuring out how to get haste. Fortunately, It is about the only class that makes an effective str/dex hybrid. (I even proposed a str based, blinding speed, edr Str/dex/con hybrid barbarian RDD on the TCNC forums once. It wasn't perfect, but there is no way any other faction could even consider anything like that)

If you want to build for dragon form, it is a little more straight forward, but there is more to it than just taking 30 rdd levels. Take edr and elemental resists and you have probably the best offensively-minded damage reduction tank on the server, go wisdom based and you have a great stunner and spotter, go cha based for divine feats, go with monk levels for the monk attack progression, etc.

From the perspective of versatility and variety, RDD is an amazing class to build with. If you just want a roadmap for a power build, RDD's don't provide that. I'm sure SL is jealous with their assassins that are only good for 1 thing (not to mention SL has much fewer class/alignment options than AO in general)

[rocketkai]

You can only build sorc/pal/rdd in AO. clc/pal/rdd is invalid.

[Adventurer#1337]

"Dragons have the highest non-crit melee damage per hit on the server"

Big lie i have seen 100 base damage heavy flail toons, and more is possible. And again rdd does 30 damage if you have the right shield, and if you are barbarian its 11 damage…. But i bet i'll have to repeat this again).

"The thing about RDD builds that is different from other prestige classes is that there is no magic formula for making a good one. A 10 level dip is a fantastic supplement to any str based melee build, and even some dexer builds, but you generally have to deal with limited feats and figuring out how to get haste. Fortunately, It is about the only class that makes an effective str/dex hybrid. (I even proposed a str based, blinding speed, edr Str/dex/con hybrid barbarian RDD on the TCNC forums once. It wasn't perfect, but there is no way any other faction could even consider anything like that)"

What are you trying to say? hybrid fighter wm rogue can have 67 ab and blinding speed with 1 ava scroll, and focus in both scimitar and heavy flail. Cots and their undispellable 5 minute lasting 13 ab buff make good hybrid dex/str builds too.
Yes it wasn't perfect, I bet it wasn't perfect. Probably an ugly will save, with a just ok fort and …. reflexes. with …. ab. An earthgenasi fighter has 65 ac 73 ab, and can rumble hiders instead of being multi sneaked like a non elf barb/ bard / rdd. It has 8 epic feats, if you take edr, blinding, weapon focuses, fort and discipline there is no room for anything else. So even if you made it half ogre, compared to one of mines lets say, the wood elf ranger bard rdd with 115 spot (self buffed 125 party) and 63 ab self buffed (just aid), what awesome ab can you get? Probably the same, with the difference that you can't spot.


"If you want to build for dragon form, it is a little more straight forward, but there is more to it than just taking 30 rdd levels. Take edr and elemental resists and you have probably the best offensively-minded damage reduction tank on the server, go wisdom based and you have a great stunner and spotter, go cha based for divine feats, go with monk levels for the monk attack progression, etc."

ugh no talking about that crappy dragonform anymore pls


" If you just want a roadmap for a power build, RDD's don't provide that."

Exactly!!! Rdd is missing power build opportunities! Paladin is a half solution but still something.

[Daral0085]

Please shed more tears, your sorrow fuels my CoT.