ECL 3 races

[Celorn]

That was... interesting, for a second there I almost understood what willow was saying. !

Personally, RK is very painful for me to build in. I have always preferred bard, paladin and blackguard tainted builds and ANYTHING I build in RK is stuck with less of something compared to building elsewhere due to the charisma issue. Though, some builds aren't possible anywhere but RK (ie: Pally/Rogue or Pally/Sorc builds).

RK excels at fighters, SDs, or wisdom based casters, even wizards are better due to the disc bonus.

Overall the no class restrictions (except, well, AA) aspect looks great on paper, but when you actually sit down and start working things out, it gets depressing.

->What would make me happiest would be an ECL3 dwarf with SR and +4 to CHA(which would actually be +2 CHA compared to a human) +dex would be nice too, that would open up a new world of possibilities and help RK. I have tweaked my favorite bard build for RK but the exact same build using drow in AO/ma/sl/tc is +3ab/ac higher so why would I waste my time?

Well back to my exciting runofthemill fighters and clerics...

[Ogami]

I won't say rk excels at hiders...

[mining]

There's a few unique things you can do out of rk, mostly cheesing pal/rogue for high AC/AB w/ edodge, DM/DS isn't quite out the window - -2 cha isn't the end of the world, its still a ridiculously good AC/damage bonus.
Few good options based on using that nice disc, saw a nice pure cleric meleer with enough disc to stand toe to toe with most builds, perhaps not hogre WM.
DWD gives good DR, dipping 20 levels allows for edodge and... fighter for AB? Maybe paladin for divine feats, might be tough to work in. Get a few good casters too, DC 48 wizards w/ lorekeeper/tinker and wizard... Also high end DC clerics with svirf/lorekeeper and ranger. Disc bonus might make them better than from most factions.
Think you guys tend to look at "not quite as good as other factions" more than "we're the only faction that can do this, lets abuse it".

Mind you, I definitely agree that bard is lacking in RK, which isn't that easy to work around.

[Rufio]

A pure bard tinker gnome is almost as good as a drow pure bard. I'd bet you could get 1 more ab and ac due to the small size bonus (or the same ac if your drow bard was planning on using a tower shield). The only thing you miss out on is keen senses.

[mining]

A pure bard tinker gnome is almost as good as a drow pure bard. I'd bet you could get 1 more ab and ac due to the small size bonus (or the same ac if your drow bard was planning on using a tower shield). The only thing you miss out on is keen senses.

Hrmm, good point. You even gain in no need to carry tower shields, and swap +2 cha for +2 con, which isn't a half bad trade. Loss in wisdom hurts will, but thats not terrible - -1 will vs -1 con. Would be interesting how it plays out.

[Elagneros]

The only real problem RK has with hiders is lack of Ghostwise Halfing, which every other faction gets. Otherwise, the best bet for hider is a smurf, and they get a similar hide bonus compared to all other non-Ghostwise hiders (and how come smurf has wizard as favored class? Standard smurf favors rogue.) I think the problem here isn't that RK is too weak, it's that Ghostwise is too strong.

How about a gnome race that makes a decent but unique bard? Gnome were given bard as a favored class in 3.5, but the standard 3.5 gnome races really don't mesh with bard that well. Is there anything in Races of Stone that would make a good dorf or gnome bard? I don't have that book.

Forest gnomes could be an interesting addition as well, even if just limited to RK and TC.

[Rufio]

Tinker gnome bard! My suggestions fall on deaf ears. Tinker gnomes even get bard as their favored class assuming you take bard at level 1 (of course if you are pure you always will).

Tinker gnomes have near perfect stats for a dexer bard build. Str and wis are dump stats, so -2 on each isn't a big deal, and as a dexer +2 dex is obviously important, and +2 int is great since bards need a lot of skill points. There is no cha bonus, but 16 cha isn't hard to get, especially using a +2 book, and no con penalty is an advantage over drow bards, who often have terrible hp. Then there is the small size bonus which is a virtual +2 dex



Because it seems like I am the only one that has this figured out, I'll spell it out.

Start with 6 str, 20 dex, 12 con, 14 int, 6 wis, 14 cha after racial bonuses. If you want more str for carrying capacity, use a book or lower the con score.

Add +2 dex, +2 con, +2 int, and +2 cha book. Only the cha is necessary, the int is needed if you want more skills, and dex and con just give nice stat boosts.

That gives 6 str, 22 dex, 12 con, 16 int, 6 wis, 16 cha

Now consider that since you start with 22 dex, as much as any other bard build, but also have small stature, you will have 1 more ab than any drow or gith bard using the same feats, more hp than any drow bards out there, and the same ac without having to have tower shield spell failure, or have 1 more ac using a small shield than other small shield using bards. 16 int is enough for you to max out discipline, tumble, concentration, perform, taunt, spellcraft, and umd. if you want listen, swap out taunt or lower the starting con score. If you want more hp, skill points, carrying capacity, or whatever else, just drop dex by 2 and you have freed up quite a few points to put into ability scores while still having a high dex score.

If these stats aren't perfect for a bard, you'll never be happy.



Also, I think ghostwise are too powerful too and i'd like to see them nerfed, but ghostwise hipsers aren't cornerstone builds of other factions.

[Celorn]

A pure bard tinker gnome is almost as good as a drow pure bard. I'd bet you could get 1 more ab and ac due to the small size bonus (or the same ac if your drow bard was planning on using a tower shield). The only thing you miss out on is keen senses.

You're missing the overall point -> ECL3 <- tinker and all dwarf races have no racial SR or keen, and the only RK race that does has a MEGA CHA penalty so not gonna be making a viable bard, sorc, pally or bg with svirf. The same build vs. tinker gets NO AC boost because you can't use tower shields, but technically gets +1 ab, but there are some problems, mainly the size penalty -- can't use rapier, and can be disarmed/kded easier than a dorf.

So yes, of course I have fiddled with a Tinker gnome bard, and compared to, say, an Azer with the same build (which is slightly better due to opening rapier up, and giving the bard a way to self-buff her weapon). The trade off is the tinker gets +1-2 ab (+2dex & small size gives another +1 vs.larger races), -1 con and -1 wis (same fort, lower HPs and will). So it's a close one, comes down to higher ab (with risks) or higher base damage.

The build I am thinking is not a pure bard (where STR is NOT a dump stat), but a much stronger cross-classed one (considering the nerfted pure bard bonus isn't worth as much now), with tight requirements but only needs a +2 CHA book to pull it off. Using a human race would make it a bit better with the extra feat (or feats if githzerai) but would lose the fire damage. I'll probably make it in RK anyway, just out of spite, and hope it kicks arse! But aside from bards, there's NO way I'm gonna rebuild my pally/rog/wm unless RK gets something better race-wise, since it took FOUR +2 books to just make the feat/skill/spell requirements without nerfing dex to make it with drow in LA.

I'm just hoping for 1 or 2 future additions; a +4 CHA boosted dorf, or a SR45 dorf (but I'll gladly take both ), keen senses isn't as important to me as I have done well in the past busting SDs using non-keen sense toons .

---

As for SDs.... There is also Duergar, +4 to MS isn't nearly the +10 hide of ghostwise, plus it has the size penalty and blindness issues that ghostwise doesn't. I do like the immunities and II, it's sort of a trade-off but ECL2 compared to ECL0..hmm..

[Elagneros]

Hmm, really ghostwise should probably have some +ECL on it at the very least.

[cRaZy8or5e]

I think that one of the biggest problems/holdups to a charismatic race is the fact that RK gets pally/sorces. lol Maybe take sorc's away from RK and then give them a charismatic race. That would just be mean.

Seriously though, RK always has, and always should require a team approach since they have access to all the classes. Why is that so difficult to understand? The BB's showed people how it was done, a lot of you were there for that, and still we're discussing this?

[mining]

From my perspective, the advantage of RK is that you get everything, but lose out on sheer power of everything. Yeah, your (build X) has 1 less AB and AC than in TC, AO, SL or NC, but MA can't even make (build X). When you look at every faction against RK, you're sacrificing, at worst, about 2 AB/AC on a divine build in exchange for access to just about anything. The real builds that take the hits are the SDs, but you can still work around that and make the most of that discipline bonus.

Also, I've probably said it before, somewhere: Its basically, you're... not complaining, but pointing out that you're lacking an ECL 3 powerbuilding option outside of svirf (and no hogre makes it rough), but here's the thing: You can still do it at -1 stats. Your job bonuses are good, discipline is good, AC vs neutral is good... And really, you and I have both run the numbers on paladin/rogue/WM and its a pretty good build even without spell options.

[Alkapwn]

RK has one of the best sd build i've ever seen . Not that anyone I have seen on the server has built it yet but i've ran the numbers and well it is just plain scary.
So what the hide/ms is not through the roof it doesn't need to be vs non spotters.
It is so easy to make a spotter that can spot almost any hider. My worst spotter can spot almost every sd on the server including my own.
No one has ever really liked RK because of the race limitations but its strengths are very strong.
It's not like RK picked you and you have to build there forever. I build in all factions. If you want to make other races build in different factions!
And honestly Racial SR is pretty pathetic for pvp. Any half decent caster blows through it like a rock through a window
And PVM all 30+ CRs "overcome" it.

ps. I have an sd with 127 hide and it isnt a ghostwise halfling

[Daral0085]

It is possible to build 131 hide SD in RK, non-ghostwise. And that's even spending your epic general feats on stuff besides great dex. Stacking dexes gets you up to something like 133, self-buffed of course. It is tremendously helpful to TC/NC that you guys don't make builds like that. Otherwise we would have to build really strong spotters and that would be difficult.

Almost makes me want to start building in RK just to show off.

[Rufio]

Whether or not you actually have spell resistance is mostly meaningless because casters build with racial spell resist in mind. Just the fact that there are 4 spell resist races pretty much prevents people from building igms blasters with 20 wizard levels.

And yeah, that bard has no keen senses. That is the entire point of rk. You can build nearly anything you want with just a small sacrifice. That is all you loose.

No rapier? no big deal. You can use a shortsword or dagger and get more ab anyways. More ab = more damage in the long run. A bard in RK should be virtually undisarmable. I have a drow bard in NC that uses a spider fang, and I have never gotten disarmed. Bards have the highest disc scores on the server outside of pure fighters. Mine gets 104 disc as a dexer. No one is going to disarm that. you could come up with some hypothetical situation in which you have a fully buffed str based WM disarmer paired up with a bard that is cursing you where they have like a 1 in 20 chance of disarming, but actually encountering that situation is incredibly unlikely, and RK gets +7 disc from jobs, so you should get even more disc than my bard.

In fact, the only time I have ever been disarmed was on my very first toon when I didn't really understand how to build on the server. I even have a disarmer with 72 ab when buffed that has only successfully disarmed a few people, and I'll even give your weapon back after a fight.

[Rufio]

I'm with daral, maybe I should start building in RK too. I have never been one for doing builds that focus in maxing out one thing or using one ability. I mean, I'm over here in NC and TC making str based githzerai and earth genasi bard/pdks. I should find plenty of fun toying with RK builds.

there's NO way I'm gonna rebuild my pally/rog/wm unless RK gets something better race-wise, since it took FOUR +2 books to just make the feat/skill/spell requirements without nerfing dex to make it with drow in LA.

maybe I'm crazy, and also maybe because I don't build new toons often, but in my last 4 40's I have used:
6 +4 books (granted, split between the stashes of multiple people, and the toon is played my multiple people)
1 +4 book and 5 +2 books
5 +2 books
6 +2 books

I did tone down my 2 current projects to only use 3 +2 books, which is cheap by my standards