Bigby spells

[Jmana]

Hi I just have 2 quick questions about bigby 7 and 9 if anyone knows the answers that would be great.

1. which spell foci will help my checks, are bigby 7 and 9 evocation or conjuration on ns4 ?

2. do the epic skill focus concentration and spell craft get factored in to the checks (+10) or is it just base ranks?

Thanks

[Tsavong]

1. Evo and Conjur help bigby

2. It is base ranks + conjur spell focus feats.

[Shamedmonkey]

7th level bigby is the strongest spell on the server.

[Tsavong]

No it is not too easy to get rid of it, it's useful just not the strongest spell.

[mining]

No it is not too easy to get rid of it, it's useful just not the strongest spell.

Easy to get rid of, sure. But its wasted rounds. Its the strongest spell. (9 is blockable, but the 2nd strongest)

[Jmana]

thanks tsavong, so its evo and conj feats but then you said conj focus, im alittle confused. im thinking you mean one of them is evo the other conjuration. Could you please tell me which is which focus thanks

[Shadowalker]

7th level bigby is the strongest spell on the server.

ditto

[Bargeld]

Lvl3 FoM beats lvl7 bigs, i disagree with all you arcane haters.

[Alkapwn]

7th level bigby is the strongest spell on the server.

ditto

Its nothing compared to Drider web bolts.....

[Shadowalker]

7th level bigby is the strongest spell on the server.

ditto

Its nothing compared to Drider web bolts.....

If that was the only spell you could cast without laying down on the ground for 2 rounds.. then I would completely agree.

The obvious diffrenace is that a mage can cast a spell to remove FoM and if well built its quickened to cast bigby in the space of one round.

Only a shifter exclusively druid/shifter has access to rak, and to do the same one round grt spell breach, one round de shift, one round drider shift, one round web bolt... 4 round to one and flat footed and immobile for half the time. To use two shifters to work as team rak/drider.. thats two players who are dedicated to imobilizing, so two less toons dealing damage, healing or singing.

*edit* I think the true advantage to shifter powers, is that they are somewhat a new element in PvP. And has the potential to catch a player off guard.

[Bargeld]

That's a worst case scenario, and I have yet to see you actually do that manuever, probably because it really is as dangerous as it sounds. More often though, the scenario is that a group of raiders enters melencia and any non-fom'ed ones, you bolt attack. One per round till you've hit em all. And you haven't wasted any slots with uses per day. You can also choose to go back and forth between shapes to use this (which is a proper use of the shifter) as needed or when you see a vulnerable target. But it shouldn't be an ability that only fails when you roll a 1... that's like arcane failure with a small shield.

Lvl 7 bigs also has some level of ongoing failure based on a str check which allows a character 50% or more movement per round average over the life of the effect. This can surprise a caster once a target is grasped and they break free for a round. There is no 100% level of certainty with bigs7. The web bolt holds you completely stationary for the duration, unless a fom gets used. Which leads to yet another huge difference... Once a toon is held in place, the shifter is free to melee attack and slowly back away, using keyboard controls. This breaks the queue of the target and prevents return hits, similar to HiPS. It also provides a flat footed target, so less ab is required to hit.

Web bolt is far superior to bigs7.

There are actually some toons out there without the ability to self FoM, due to no casting abilities, tokens, or UMD classes. Oh, and your drider can spot as a wis based class.

[mining]

That's a worst case scenario, and I have yet to see you actually do that manuever, probably because it really is as dangerous as it sounds. More often though, the scenario is that a group of raiders enters melencia and any non-fom'ed ones, you bolt attack. One per round till you've hit em all. And you haven't wasted any slots with uses per day. You can also choose to go back and forth between shapes to use this (which is a proper use of the shifter) as needed or when you see a vulnerable target. But it shouldn't be an ability that only fails when you roll a 1... that's like arcane failure with a small shield.

Lvl 7 bigs also has some level of ongoing failure based on a str check which allows a character 50% or more movement per round average over the life of the effect. This can surprise a caster once a target is grasped and they break free for a round. There is no 100% level of certainty with bigs7. The web bolt holds you completely stationary for the duration, unless a fom gets used. Which leads to yet another huge difference... Once a toon is held in place, the shifter is free to melee attack and slowly back away, using keyboard controls. This breaks the queue of the target and prevents return hits, similar to HiPS. It also provides a flat footed target, so less ab is required to hit.

Web bolt is far superior to bigs7.

There are actually some toons out there without the ability to self FoM, due to no casting abilities, tokens, or UMD classes. Oh, and your drider can spot as a wis based class.

Actually, web bolt has a str check too. Bigby slow drops enemies to one attack a round and knocks off 4 AC. Bigbier's can mord, then bigby7 80% of stuff, or bigby9 low AC stuff. They can then counter the cleric, or rain death with offensive spells. If said Shifter is form hopping, all it takes is a bigby 9 when they're deshifted to kill them. Remember, shifter can't UMD while shifted. GSB>Bigs7 makes for a 50% slow chance. With the -4 AC (and, by extension, -3 from dex buff getting dispelled) Crow and Sancreed would be at 70 AC, which is just in the hittable area for bigby 9. But of course, you would never do that, lest your precious bigby be nerfed.

[Bargeld]

First, i don't think mord removes dex buffs, thats a greater dispel thing and its a dispel check.
Yes it slows to 50% and sometimes the target breaks that and gets caught again. How often is the str check on the web and what is the DC?
-4 ac for bigs7 vs flat foot (-all dodge and dex ac; worst case scenario, this could be -35 AC which is 15 dex ac and 20 capped dodge AC) with the ability to retract from combat and repeat.

And given your scenario vs crow & sancreed, it *might* only hit 1x. Mord to dispel fom, then big7 to reduce AC and then bigs9 to hit and stun (which dispels the bigs 7, restoring AC). 2x lvl 9 and a lvl 7 spell, and 2 rounds to do it.

Demonstrate your scenario with a web bolt vs those same toons and see how it plays out...

[mining]

First, i don't think mord removes dex buffs, thats a greater dispel thing and its a dispel check.

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Oh, my bad, I meant to indicate dispel over mord.

Yes it slows to 50% and sometimes the target breaks that and gets caught again. How often is the str check on the web and what is the DC?

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Check is once only, pass and you're through, no duration after you break the web, with a DC of (I want to say shifter level + 5). To be survivable enough to utilise it fully, it caps at, what, DC 25 vs str? Its also a touch attack, so its kind of eh.

-4 ac for bigs7 vs flat foot (-all dodge and dex ac; worst case scenario, this could be -35 AC which is 15 dex ac and 20 capped dodge AC) with the ability to retract from combat and repeat.

And given your scenario vs crow & sancreed, it *might* only hit 1x. Mord to dispel fom, then big7 to reduce AC and then bigs9 to hit and stun (which dispels the bigs 7, restoring AC). 2x lvl 9 and a lvl 7 spell, and 2 rounds to do it.

Demonstrate your scenario with a web bolt vs those same toons and see how it plays out...

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Shifters are immune to entangle (rather, druids are) so I'd laugh, loudly.

[Bargeld]

Oh, my bad, I meant to indicate dispel over mord.

That would add another spell into the mix to use up (there goes another useful pre-memmed spell slot). Besides, you use mord to strip FoM, rather than dispel because it's a sure-shot. So you can retract all that -dex ac nonsense.

Check is once only, pass and you're through, no duration after you break the web, with a DC of (I want to say shifter level + 5). To be survivable enough to utilise it fully, it caps at, what, DC 25 vs str? Its also a touch attack, so its kind of eh.

First off, you know as well as I do that most dex toons don't go running around with 25 buffed strength... more like 18 or 20. And i would guess that is an opposed check, so 18-20 +d20 vs 25 +d20. Definately favors the web slinger on that one, single attempt to save. Second off, I don't know what you are thinking about touch attacks to say they are 'kind of eh'. The web bolt is a ranged touch attack (most of the ones i get hit by are about +46 or so).

A touch attack denies the defender their armor and shield AC (base and bonus), as well as their natural armor bonus to AC. All other armor class modifiers, such as the size modifier, dexterity modifier, and deflection/dodge bonus (if any) apply normally. The attacker's touch attack bonus is as follows.

Melee:
BAB + strength modifier + nature sense + epic prowess (unless a ranged weapon is equipped) + unarmed weapon focus feats (if unarmed or using a creature weapon) + effects
Ranged:
BAB + dexterity modifier + weapon attack bonus + effects (natural weapon on shifter is what, +11?)

...

*A touch attack can catch a target flat-footed further negating its dodge and dexterity (if unsecured) AC.
*Unlike a normal attack, the attack bonus of a touch attack is not further modified by circumstantial bonuses/penalties (e.g. expertise mode, flanking, target prone, bane of enemies), nor is it affected by the size modifier.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Touch_attack

Shifters are immune to entangle (rather, druids are) so I'd laugh, loudly.

Well played... but if they weren't?