Blackguards

[Rufio]

i might have been a little harsh on the damage shield idea and didn't really spell out what I thought was overpowered about it. Being able to get your cha bonus on top of 1d6 damge is quite a lot. If you are cha based it would get very powerful, potentially out damaging whatever is hitting you if you have the right damage reduction. It would be more reasonable to me if it was maybe a flat 2d4 damage, which isn't much, but it would certainly wear down an attacker a bit over the course of a battle without it becoming a weapon in itself.

[Bargeld]

your first mistake was going with sorceror and BG and trying to make into a melee character. EMA was the only reason this could be considered acceptable as an AC tank but since the change, the build sucks. what you're left with is something that sucks as a caster, and a base AB that doesn't allow you to be an effective hitter either.

Another hint; using a different damage type than your summon too. That would help demonstrably.

The monk had better AC than the summon had AB because the summon needed a bard and a cleric to buff it. Monks get incredible AC, I don't know why you're surprised that your summon was having difficulty, especially as the monk was going to hit on ever strike, was probably wearing pierce protection, so yeah, guess what, everything was stacked in the monks favor . . . duh.
Is that so difficult to fathom. Watch what happens after you get it buffed. And add a true melee focused BG into the mix either swinging or shooting at the monk while it tries to run. Try it. I promise you guys will be pleasantly surprised.

Wow that's harse considering the capabilities of the toon. You missed the mark on everything IMO... the summon had 66 ab and had no problems hitting and even KDing the monk with any attempts. All non-crits were completely absorbed by DI/DR. Crits did good-ish damage, and yes, AS I SAID (as opposed to "probably wearing pierce robes") he WAS wearing them. But really... golden mith pierce robes and no other protection can stop a raw lvl 30 BG summon in it's tracks? That is inane. That was my smiter bg vs a neutral monk and the toon had no problems laying waste to that monk after the summon was dead, 1 on 1, with 38 ab and a kukri. And no buffs except self bg bulls. The contagion destroyed the monk, and I taunted him. The toon itself is so much worse at melee, stat-wise, than the summon, it was just a huge discrepancy that I saw.

As far as the pally... again AS I SAID, dispel was the killer. I had 58 ab and 73 ac with cats blinding speed, ii, mage armor, shield spell, and full pierce gear vs a rapier dex pally. Once the pally dispel hit, it was all over. I didn't expect to win that fight in the first place, and I even said that I was able to hang with it for a decent amount of time, even unbuffed. The point was that the summon needed longevity IMO.... hence the suggestion of self harms like the EDK.

*someone* woke up with their crabby hat on the wrong way

[Twiggy]

Since frog has proven everyone wrong, with Twiggy being the wrongest one all we have to settle now is the answer to his question about CoT finaly geting the golden wyrm. So when is ETA on it?

Hold up a second........how the hell am i wrong? All i've been saying is make the BG better, mainly by making the summon better.

and it adds to caster lvl.....

Regarding PM.

Ranger- Purpose is to spot sneakers and damage a very specific group of people.

Sorcerer- cross between fighter and caster

Monk- Mage Killer

Red Dragon Disciple- (pretty much shifters now)

Harper Scout- really only a good addition for rangers.

Shadow Dancer- Summon

want to beat a mage make a monk. want to beat a pally, make a good aligned WM (or even nuetral aligned).

that isn't a BG that's a sorcerer. if it was a BG it would have a majority of BG lvls.

why have a class if it's only good for 5 levels.

a once per day ability that lasts way too short to be of use for anything but boss battles and a short stint in pvp.

All i've been saying is make the BG better

All of your incorrectness, listed in an easy to read form!

i don't even want to go through and say how dumb this was. But one thing irked me. PM does add to caster lvl. 1/2 a lvl is still adding numb nuts

none of what i said was incorrect, just spouting incorrect doesn't make what you say any more valid.

if i felt like spending my time and actually coming back and explaining to you how each and every point is valid, then you would feel very dumb. But i'll just do what you did and say that your incorrect without any proof or explanation as to how or why.

I never said it should be more rp oriented. How much the server is rply is good enough. I was saying that since the server is a rp server (it is in case u couldn't tell) things should make a bit more sense rply, hence the reason why rogues are not allowed in NC. Cheese builds is prolly part of the reason, but rp is the other. I never said i hate multi-class builds. I have quite a few. But simple is sometimes better and easier on the mind. Also i said Pure classes should be more powerful doing what their purpose was, Hey numb nuts you been seeing anything i write? how bout u go sit back in your big boy chair and let people who are grownups do the talking.

Cahaal, i like the idea to boost BG's. death armor is a good idea. scaling with level etc. etc. Most people are comparing Bg's to pally's and CoT's. so look at how each beats out on BG's and make them comparable. BG's buffs are easily dispelled. how about give BG's a dispell ability usable twice a day that acts like the pally's dispell, in strength and dc. Also what makes BG's different from pally's is their summon, which should be the great equalizer. it is what is different and should be used to further separate the two builds. Reason why i said give pally a summon is because "IF" you up the BG summon, then even though pally's AT THIS TIME are very powerful, two on one is not very good odds. IMO if u do anything to BG's it should only be allowable if you make them 30 BG only. I say this because having Bg's as a prc they are automatically given more diversity then a pure pally. like a sorc BG magic is not a pally's friend. If the BG get's upgraded it should be looked at like a pure class.

[Daltian]

Come on Twiggy, explain why he is wrong. I need a good laugh.

[Twiggy]

Come on Twiggy, explain why he is wrong. I need a good laugh.

go stick ur head in a meat grinder

[Amoenotep]

i think we've been as far as this is going to go...all points have been made by now.

and in a flash..the universe was saved

[Amoenotep]

unlocked for demand...do we have a point somewhere?

[mining]

I'll make this quick, double duration seems balanced, but move it to 25 to make it impossible to get Edodge and crippling, triple is a bit too good, 1.5x DM is a bit too good, make it + 1 AB / 5 cha mod, make divine shield 5% immunity / 10 cha mod, like paladin would be balanced, move this to 28 BG. It should be challenging to get amazing stuff without being nearly pure.

(will be more in depth later, need to go quickly )

[mining]

Divine Might: Duration doubles at Blackguard 21, and triples at Blackguard level 30. At Blackguard 21, receives a 50% bonus to their charisma modifier for divine might damage.

Divine Shield: Duration doubles at Blackguard 21, and triples at Blackguard 30. A divine damage shield is also added to the effect at level 24, inflicting damage equal to the character's CHA bonus + 1d6 on anyone swinging at the character in melee combat. The base damage also increases by 50% at Blackguard level 30, to (3/2xCHA bonus) + 1d6. It also provides 1% immunity to divine damage per point of charisma modifier.

Or leave Divine Shield unchanged and add Death Armor as cast by a Sorc of the same lvl as the BG.

Call of the Grave: At Blackguard 24, casts a mass Vampiric Touch spell centered on the Blackguard as a Sorc of the same level as the Blackguard's level. (I think this is the spell is available, I think it's is what Githyanki's get.)

Ok, the basic problem I see is that 21 BG levels isn't much. You can pick up epic dodge, crippling strike, a summon, and 28 BAB with 22 levels of BG. The double duration and 1.5 damage is strong by itself, never mind having epic dodge as well. Epic Dodge is one of the only feats I'm seriously implying needs to be balanced around ( given you could get ~82 AC ).

Call of the Grave scaling nicely would be really fun.

I can see BG getting a big bunch of tokens based on making it more of an interactive build, i.e. tokens to 'curse' enemies to suffer small damage over time (say, 5 damage damage a round for 10 rounds) or a token that dispels one effect a round for 5 rounds, with a dispel DC of (BG level + cha mod)x2/3 or something.

Little, gimmicky things that add up to make a more interactive class with a few combat advantages (i.e. double duration might/shield at, say, 28 BG) and some nice little bonuses (dispels, spell failure debuffs, damage over time effects i.e. inferno and the like).

Pure class BG bonuses would be an option, toned down from paladin slightly to account for having 10 free levels, I guess, though pure class is always boring .


Level 11 (UnHoly Avenger): The Corrupt Weapon Spell continues to gain in power and grants an Enhancement bonus of level/5 +2 and the bonus damage granted now works against Non-evil creatures. (The UnHoly Avenger will only work for the Blackguard.)
Level 13 (Dark Whisperings): 1/day. Targeted, Dispel over time with an effectiveness of BG's Level. 1 spell targetted per round for BG/3 level rounds.
Level 15 (Epic Divine Might): Double duration on Divine Might and Divine Shield. Targets within range of the BG lose 1 AC / 5 cha mod, and lose 10 damage (of some sort?) per 10 cha mod.
Level 15 (Unholy Blight): Target becomes 5% vulnerable to all damage types. Increases by 5% at 25 and 30.
Level 18 (Blood Sacrifice): 1/day, halves the BG and his target's current health.
Level 20 (Corruption): 1/Day, The Paladin and nearby enemies take damage of = 1/5 BG level, Duration in rounds = Cha mod + 10. The BG also generates an aura that applies a spell failure rate of BG's level/2 to any good foes entering the aura for 1hour/5levels. At level 35, neutral foes are also affected by the aura.
Level 25 (Detect non-evil): Detect good also detects Neutral characters. Neutral character glow blue for a short duration.
Level 28 (Ritual Blood Sacrifice): Once per 20 Minutes. The BlackGuard dies in exchange for dealing damage equal to 20% of all nearby enemies health.
Level 30 (Aspect of the Abyss): Once a day the Blackguard grants 10 negative damage to all allies in the area, 5 AB, 100 HP, immunity to negative energy, +20 discipline, for 1 round per charisma modifier. In addition, the BG's summon receives twice this bonus.

BOOOORRRRING. No. Don't do it .

[Bargeld]

Or just make the summon better.

[mining]

Or just make the summon better.

Better summon? No. Better quality weaponry? Yes.

65 AB is plenty for a summon, especially if it gets a nice +7 weapon with a bunch of, say, physical, cold and acid damage- the factions that don't get BG.

Also, because Twiggy was annoyed with it;

----------- ------------- ----------- ------------ ----------- -------------- -----------

Since frog has proven everyone wrong, with Twiggy being the wrongest one all we have to settle now is the answer to his question about CoT finaly geting the golden wyrm. So when is ETA on it?

Hold up a second........how the hell am i wrong? All i've been saying is make the BG better, mainly by making the summon better.

and it adds to caster lvl.....

Regarding PM.
It adds to dispel resistance is all. Not caster level.

Ranger- Purpose is to spot sneakers and damage a very specific group of people.

This is so wrong its not funny. Ranger is a class that has a minor set of casting option, and from there the ability to make a strong melee, ranged or sneaker toon with higher AB and damage than average.

Sorcerer- cross between fighter and caster

Sorcerer- More spells, less options. In NWN, doesn't matter so much, so the sorceror is generally called the wizard deluxe.

Monk- Mage Killer

Lol, no. To kill something, you need to do good damage, and have AB, and not be slowed/disabled by a bigby and slowly dying from ice spam and melf's.

Red Dragon Disciple- (pretty much shifters now)

RDD is THE best melee dip class in the game, amazing for AC, AB, str bonuses, con bonuses, cha bonuses, int bonuses, amazing skill list...

Harper Scout- really only a good addition for rangers.

Really only a great addition to casters, rangers, and anything that desperately wants more epic feats at the cost of 2 preepic ones.

Shadow Dancer- Summon

Shadow Dancer's don't get a summon. Shadow dancers get a mobile archery target.

want to beat a mage make a monk. want to beat a pally, make a good aligned WM (or even nuetral aligned).

Want to beat a mage? Make another mage, or pray you have something it isn't built to kill.
Want to beat a pally? Play a mage. Or Shadowdancer. Or god knows what else.

that isn't a BG that's a sorcerer. if it was a BG it would have a majority of BG lvls.

That isn't a SD, thats a rogue. No, thats a Rogue/SD. Its not any one thing, for it has elements of it all.

why have a class if it's only good for 5 levels.

Hello PDK and HS! Hello SD!

a once per day ability that lasts way too short to be of use for anything but boss battles and a short stint in pvp.

Oh yeah, CoT Wrath is so beyond useless, we've made CoTs to protest the uselessness of it.

All i've been saying is make the BG better

You've also been talking about nerfing every class, and all of the above, and heaven forbid, roleplay.



All of your incorrectness, listed in an easy to read form!

(also, I'm sure I could've done better. Couldn't be bothered wasting any time on actually doing this)

[Chernobyl_Glow]

frankly your insistence upon calling people "wrong" is about equally as sporting as shamed calling people 'stupid'. the folks who agree with you enjoy it but the folks you're trying to convince tend to then ingore you because of it. and if you knew this you'd know that what you're doing is then just self indulgent. very much like a teenager would do. be more mature and you'll sound more intelligent.

Ok, the basic problem I see is that 21 BG levels isn't much. You can pick up epic dodge, crippling strike, a summon, and 28 BAB with 22 levels of BG. The double duration and 1.5 damage is strong by itself, never mind having epic dodge as well. Epic Dodge is one of the only feats I'm seriously implying needs to be balanced around ( given you could get ~82 AC ).

this sounds like a lot of shifter builds. 13 rogue/21 shifter/6 druid or somesuch. as long as 30 bg has a pay off then there would be a sacrifice to getting epic dodge. like shifter, there is often no pay off to extra shifter levels thus epic dodge is not that difficult of a decision. BG shouldn't be judged any differently.

... and RDD's flaw as 'THE best melee dip class' is that it requires 10 to dip. not 5 like BG or Pally or Monk or Rogue or Cot or Ranger or PDK or Harper or SD. All those classes (and more) pay off in 5. RDD forces you into 25/5/10 builds which leave you very few epic feats. and that "5" has to be sorc or bard. so it basically takes 15 of your 40 levels to "dip". its nice but quite balanced. dream about your hogre rdd's and get slaughtered by your generic neutral cot gith monk.

respectfully,

- glow -

[mining]

frankly your insistence upon calling people "wrong" is about equally as sporting as shamed calling people 'stupid'. the folks who agree with you enjoy it but the folks you're trying to convince tend to then ingore you because of it. and if you knew this you'd know that what you're doing is then just self indulgent. very much like a teenager would do. be more mature and you'll sound more intelligent.

Ok, the basic problem I see is that 21 BG levels isn't much. You can pick up epic dodge, crippling strike, a summon, and 28 BAB with 22 levels of BG. The double duration and 1.5 damage is strong by itself, never mind having epic dodge as well. Epic Dodge is one of the only feats I'm seriously implying needs to be balanced around ( given you could get ~82 AC ).

this sounds like a lot of shifter builds. 13 rogue/21 shifter/6 druid or somesuch. as long as 30 bg has a pay off then there would be a sacrifice to getting epic dodge. like shifter, there is often no pay off to extra shifter levels thus epic dodge is not that difficult of a decision. BG shouldn't be judged any differently.

... and RDD's flaw as 'THE best melee dip class' is that it requires 10 to dip. not 5 like BG or Pally or Monk or Rogue or Cot or Ranger or PDK or Harper or SD. All those classes (and more) pay off in 5. RDD forces you into 25/5/10 builds which leave you very few epic feats. and that "5" has to be sorc or bard. so it basically takes 15 of your 40 levels to "dip". its nice but quite balanced. dream about your hogre rdd's and get slaughtered by your generic neutral cot gith monk.

respectfully,

- glow -

My insistence on calling Twiggy wrong is basically borne by my irritation at his repeated use of RP as a basis for balance, and a lack of consideration on his other issues. I felt the need to drive home each point with a stupid picture because I felt like being self indulgent. Please pardon the teenager .

Secondly, I agree re: RDD. Bard isn't a bad class to dip anyway, though.

Thirdly, Shifter builds call for a payoff of BAB, (the crow and Sancreed builds have abysmal AB and only 14 BAB at 20). A BG could take Edodge and still have 18 BAB AND double duration divine shield to get the same AC.

[Cahaal]

For the summon, he should have a halbred. He's large so give him a shield so he can use both the shield and the halbred. And give him some armor. Or instead of armor give him some DR and bump the AC.
He should have some skills other than disc. The other summons have keen senses and spot and the devil has only points in disc but still enters detect mode all the time.
Give him some SR.
Have the summon scale with BG lvls and not cap so early.

[mining]

Suggestion: Summon gets 65 AB, no AC at all. Gets 1k HP and 50% DI. No DR. That should be tanky enough. Give it a HoD quality Halberd. Give it KD. Give it keen senses and 90 spot. Make spot at +20 to the cap. Buffable to 70 AB, 120 spot. Seems like it'd work at 30 BG to have that, I guess.It'd need to be way below PM though. About the same as a 35 fighter.