Blackguards

[Bargeld]

Make CoT's Good only, make rogues non-good only and then allow them in NC

[Alkapwn]

it adds a bit more melee to your caster...mage to your mage is negligible as it only adds half lvls to caster lvl

Pale master does add to caster, You get more spell slots, and it adds to caster lvl.....)

It doesnt add any caster levels at all. Only vs Dispels. And the spell slots gained are only 2 to 1 of arcane class, so if you already have 20 arcane levels the only thing it adds is 1/2 level pm vs dispels. Hence the only and most important benefit of PM is Critical/sneak hit immunity which is huge but then also taking fire/divine vunerablities and Evil alignment.

[mining]

it adds a bit more melee to your caster...mage to your mage is negligible as it only adds half lvls to caster lvl

Pale master does add to caster, You get more spell slots, and it adds to caster lvl.....)

It doesnt add any caster levels at all. Only vs Dispels. And the spell slots gained are only 2 to 1 of arcane class, so if you already have 20 arcane levels the only thing it adds is 1/2 level pm vs dispels. Hence the only and most important benefit of PM is Critical/sneak hit immunity which is huge but then also taking fire/divine vunerablities and Evil alignment.

Pale summon is worth it. AC is worth it. Laughing wildly at the cleric spamming heal while being counterspelled is worth it.

[Alkapwn]

it adds a bit more melee to your caster...mage to your mage is negligible as it only adds half lvls to caster lvl

Pale master does add to caster, You get more spell slots, and it adds to caster lvl.....)

It doesnt add any caster levels at all. Only vs Dispels. And the spell slots gained are only 2 to 1 of arcane class, so if you already have 20 arcane levels the only thing it adds is 1/2 level pm vs dispels. Hence the only and most important benefit of PM is Critical/sneak hit immunity which is huge but then also taking fire/divine vunerablities and Evil alignment.

Pale summon is worth it. AC is worth it. Laughing wildly at the cleric spamming heal while being counterspelled is worth it.

Hey i love PM's ! They're awesome. i was just correcting misinformation

[Cahaal]

@ Bargeld, is your comment about building directed at me. If so just come out and say it and don't beat around the bush. I use a custom electronic document to make my builds too.

@ burrahobbit, I'm glad you like my BG. I like it too. It's so fun to play. Maybe I'm missing something about CoTs being neutral and limiting the builds available. Please expound on this.

@ Mining, there are some builds out there for BGs but they rely on dispellable buffs. Mine for example does use scrolls and wands but the forest spirits in TC and the guards in MA dispel nearly all of them before I ever reach the relic room. Double duration divine might/shield is a good step. They just don't last very long and you draw Sneak Attacks and AOO's when you cast them.

[Daltian]

If CoT would be good only it would be impossible to make Githzerai monk/cot and it would seriously nerf CoTs. And I don't think CoT's need nerfing, so Twiggy please get some insight into things before you start suggesting. Your suggestions and explanations are least to say strange.

[mining]

@ Bargeld, is your comment about building directed at me. If so just come out and say it and don't beat around the bush. I use a custom electronic document to make my builds too.
@ Mining, there are some builds out there for BGs but they rely on dispellable buffs. Mine for example does use scrolls and wands but the forest spirits in TC and the guards in MA dispel nearly all of them before I ever reach the relic room. Double duration divine might/shield is a good step. They just don't last very long and you draw Sneak Attacks and AOO's when you cast them.

Bargeld's comment is probably @ me getting silly with twiggy about RP.

Remember, I consider the Rozsudek and Judgement builds as CoTs. Just as I consider stuff like hand of torm as BGs. Its not just heavy in a class that is useful. BGs can be compared to, say, SDs. SDs get some amazing stuff between 5 and 10, some stuff from 10-20, and from there... not much of use. Do SDs need a buff? Hell no. Do BGs need a buff? Maybe a small one. But oh, such a small one. Double duration divine feats are amazing. Its the sole reason why there are pure paladins around the place, I would argue.
Aiea, I think that some of the reasons your BG can be underwhelming is because it is, at best, a two trick pony. Summon and smiting. I remember drafting some melee build when we were discussing it in IRC... forever ago, that had mid 60s AB and 80? AC. Just browsing the IRC says that. BG is a jack of all trades class, good for DM, DS, saves, as a basis, and for an ok summon later on.

[frogofpeace]

Mining, you are my new hero for rational and reasoned argument.

Make CoT's Good only, make rogues non-good only and then allow them in NC

Hurray! ... wait, wut?

[Cahaal]

Why is losing a race a nerf? Gith is not the end all be all race for everything. CoTs should be good aligned because it fits with the purpose and feats of the class.

Gith is overused, IMO, by people who are trying to get the greatest AC they can. Can a monk/CoT be made in NC? Yes it can, and there are a variety of races to make it. You can't make a Gith monk/BG either. Just like you can't make a Genasi monk/cot or monk/BG. Is that a nerf? IMO, no.

Mining, I am not underwhelmed by my BG. I'm pointing out where high level BG's fall short. Like the summon. There was no real information out there about the BG summon so I built one and I'm pointing out where it falls short. The DK summons for good and evil aligned characters are better than the neutral one. Why? Because the Devs/DM wanted to encourage picking non-neutral alignments. I point out where the Devil lacks to draw attention to it since very few people build high lvl BGs. My discussion this whole time has been about HIGH level BGs and not dipping into them. SDs can't be compared. The NWN community has all agreed that HiPS is the single greatest feat in the game and on NS4 we tend to have the same opinion. If I could have a chance to build Ange au Demon again, I probably would not take the epic summon. He just needs a bit of love is all. Like I said before, it's annoying to have him spam detect mode when he has no spot, listen, or keen sense. His weapon can't penetrate DR and he's not focused in it. He's a fighter with crappy saves (even fort). The sneaks are nice if you can flank the target. I assume that's why BG's have a summon. To make the target pick who to fight. If they pick the BG they get hit by the summon. If they pick the summon they get sneaked by the BG. Contagion DC is pitiful and there is no poison for BG's to use.

You don't have to agree with me. It's my personal opinions and expierences from actually playing a HIGH level BG that I've posted here. There are lots of builds that I've had that look good on paper but don't play well. Just like the shifter topics (insert various clsses here) where people have stataed that if you haven't built one or played one then you can't understand. That's kinda the way I feel right now.

[Daltian]

Why is losing a race a nerf? Gith is not the end all be all race for everything. CoTs should be good aligned because it fits with the purpose and feats of the class.

Gith is overused, IMO, by people who are trying to get the greatest AC they can. Can a monk/CoT be made in NC? Yes it can, and there are a variety of races to make it. You can't make a Gith monk/BG either. Just like you can't make a Genasi monk/cot or monk/BG. Is that a nerf? IMO, no.

Mining, I am not underwhelmed by my BG. I'm pointing out where high level BG's fall short. Like the summon. There was no real information out there about the BG summon so I built one and I'm pointing out where it falls short. The DK summons for good and evil aligned characters are better than the neutral one. Why? Because the Devs/DM wanted to encourage picking non-neutral alignments. I point out where the Devil lacks to draw attention to it since very few people build high lvl BGs. My discussion this whole time has been about HIGH level BGs and not dipping into them. SDs can't be compared. The NWN community has all agreed that HiPS is the single greatest feat in the game and on NS4 we tend to have the same opinion. If I could have a chance to build Ange au Demon again, I probably would not take the epic summon. He just needs a bit of love is all. Like I said before, it's annoying to have him spam detect mode when he has no spot, listen, or keen sense. His weapon can't penetrate DR and he's not focused in it. He's a fighter with crappy saves (even fort). The sneaks are nice if you can flank the target. I assume that's why BG's have a summon. To make the target pick who to fight. If they pick the BG they get hit by the summon. If they pick the summon they get sneaked by the BG. Contagion DC is pitiful and there is no poison for BG's to use.

You don't have to agree with me. It's my personal opinions and expierences from actually playing a HIGH level BG that I've posted here. There are lots of builds that I've had that look good on paper but don't play well. Just like the shifter topics (insert various clsses here) where people have stataed that if you haven't built one or played one then you can't understand. That's kinda the way I feel right now.

Thing is that as it is toughest melee monk/CoTs are Githzerais (at least ones used in PvE and when PvPing melee non hipsers) and toughest BG's aren't giths. Now assuming we are talking about BG's in this thread and you want them strengthened (which I don't object, but only on high lvls of BG, 5 levels BG is very strong PrC) and not about CoT which doesn't need nerf you still want to make CoTs weaker? I really don't see a point.
Also, CoT is faction specific PrC like RDD, PM,.... and BG is universal non TC/NC, it is different.
You also need to take in consideration the fact that even if you cant make as good smiter with BG as NC can with CoT you can come with arcane class which we can't.
Wanting for BG to be anti paladin and anti CoT is not realistic, CoT exists in environment that is completely different then where BG is and has to have totally different use. After all CoT is one of few ways for us to deal burst damage which we are severely lacking otherwise.

Also, just to add to this discussion I am the first one that agrees that BG summon needs some love. I fought your BG the other day with my stunner and I was very surprised that summon didn't do almost any damage to me. I was using piercing armor but my stunner has really awful AC and in time it took me to kill the summoner summon got me to barely injured at most. I was so shocked I started discussing how awful BG summon is.

[mining]

The summon sucks, yes. But you don't need to be uberfocused to get it. IIRC 22 BG + servant? Don't even think you need much charisma, though I might be wrong. It like, you have something around equivalent to a level 30 fighter. It hurts things like Rozsudek, because I can't afford to melee attack either you or the summon.

[MrAsimov]

Blackguard summons get bonus to their saves the same as the blackguards cha modifier so not really sure why the saves would be crappy. (I suppose it depends by what you mean by use of the word. Mine has a fort save over 40 which I wouldn't consider to fit being called that.)

The summons has a weapon called a trident but the summon is pre 1.69 and unless it was changed may well just be carrying a spear with that name.

I don't see why CoT shouldn't have to be good. Personally it has nothing to do with roleplay, what the class is or what it is called per se, but the fact that in this game it smites EVIL. Why shouldn't something that smites evil be required to be good when something that smites good is required to be evil?

And as to something I think really has no bearing on what Cahaal suggested: A huge LOL to taking Githzerai away being a nerf to CoT because you say it takes away the toughest melee monk/CoT. As if you can't make a great melee monk/CoT that isn't Gith. Gith make plenty of other tough melee builds as well, monk/(any number of classes here). But as we all know SL can't have Gith monks to improve their melee builds, better give them lawful neutral back. Your justification could be applied to so many race/class combos across the factions I really have trouble taking it seriously at face value.

[Daltian]

So your reason to take away lawful neutral from CoT is because it can smite? Lets take away good from cleric because it can harm then. And take away evil form cleric too because it can heal. And take away good from wizard because it can summon undead,.........

You also need to know that smiter CoT will NEVER be neutral. You want your first 10 levels to have at least 5 paladin if not 10. So pretty much, smiter CoT is good so there is no reason to be sad panda about it anymore.

Also again, you need to take in consideration that CoT is faction specific class and it might be stronger then average PrC, but all faction specific PrC's are stronger then average. Well all except assassin IMO.

[Bargeld]

Also, CoT is faction specific PrC like RDD, PM,.... and BG is universal non TC/NC, it is different.

Paladins aren't a PRC but are only available in NC and RK. And since Aasimar's make the best paladins, that kinda singles it out for NC.
NC has 2 PRCs, CoT and PDK.
All of the above class have abilities that are mainly anti-evil. Pally smite, divine sacrifice, radiance (vs neutral @35), and martyrdom. CoT smite and wrath. PDK buffs are all(mostly?) non-evil. Most of these abilities are very powerful because of their narrow "vs. evil" focus, but no other factions have anything like this vs good.

Assassin and BG are the only PRCs that are required to be evil (PM is non-good). All of SL is required to be evil. I can't think of any feat/ability that is specifically anti-good except BG smite... NC seems to have the odds completely stacked in their favor when fighting vs. evil, which is basically all of SL and any BG. Improving BGs would at least give NC something other than mages to fear. It still leaves SL out in the cold vs NC toons, but improvements there are an entirely different topic.

[mining]

PM changes align to evil, fyi.