Blackguards

[Cahaal]

I had some great fights today in TC and couldn't help but to notice the monk/cot I was fighting failed my smite. After some tells I found out that he was Lawful Neutral. At second level CoT's get smite evil. It is my opinion that to be able to smite one must actually choose to be good or evil and thus face the same godly retribution that they inflict.

The second item I wanted to discuss is what a BG is. People compare them to Paladins, however I see them more as evil CoTs. BG and CoT are both prestige classes that allow lots of options as has been stated before in threads about pallys vs BG's. With the idea that a BG is an evil CoT some interesting options then open up. Like Sacred defense, DR, and divine wrath. These could really overhaul the BG. About the BG summons; my summon had the AB to hit the CoT and yet did only 3 to 11 points of damage a hit while receiving 10 divine damage per attack. I'm sure this is due to the DR since it was only the elemental damage getting through. He wields a trident and has proficiencies for Halbred and Spear. Maybe we can look at a change of his weapons or feats. As it stands the summon caps out at BG 22 if my memory serves. It would also be nice for him to have some kind of buffable armor. 44 AC is horrible. My pure rogue has higher AC.

Just some thoughts; tell me what you think...

[frogofpeace]

First part sounds reasonable to me, too.

Second part, I don't play a lot of BG's, but I don't think I agree with you - BG's are neither paladins nor CoTs, they're blackguards. They get dark blessing for saves, comparable to the pali and cot save bonuses. They get sneak damage, and can take divine shield and divine might as class feats themselves. They are open to some combos that CoTs (and palis in some cases) can't get (rogue, sorc, barb come to mind). THey seem pretty balanced, as the defacto divine champion open to every faction besides NC and TC (sure, they're evil only, and if this were a strict RP server, maybe that's a problem, but I think can be reconciled with NS4).

I don't know the summons, so I won't comment on that.

Now if you want to make the converse true (CoTs are non-evil blackguards) and open up those class combos to CoTs, I'm with you 100%. We'd need to add rogues to NC

[Rufio]

I think giving blackguards CoT-like abilites is a bit much. They already get divine grace and turn undead for divine feats which are the best parts of the paladin class. Paladins get spells, but blackguards get sneak attacks, a summon, and a few spells of their own. Blackguards make a really good class to dip into for all of this. There is also plenty of incentive to go further than 5 levels for the full bab and to pick up some epic bonus feats. Adding a divine wrath-like ability would essentially give blackguards the best parts of paladins and CoT's, freeing up even more room for multiclassing options than your normal Paladin/CoT or Cleric/CoT melee builds.

I have some really good blackguard builds that I have written up to explore the class with that don't rely on summoning or just use the class as a dip for a sorc build. I really don't know why we don't see more of them, except that people get too stuck on pure classes and all the obvious builds to do anything creative.

[Bargeld]

I've used BG's in 3 ways...

5 BG monk sorc, EMA scyther. This got nerfed. If I rebuilt it now, I'd use a shield, and I'd probably still clear 80ac without expertise.

bg sorc, dex tenser and near-max summon. Seems usable, but havent tried much. In PvM during leveling it was very nice. PvP, very dispellable. AC is great.

30 bg monk smiter/summoner. This is a one trick pony. I still have yet to see the crit smite with scythe, but I am axpecting to clear 1200 damage. AB is 35 base before buffs or smite bonus. Summon is exactly the same as the above tenser build, maybe 2 ab higher. Contagion is awesome, but the DC is lacking... 30 + 14 chr = 44 and thats near the best you can do, cuz this is completely a chr based toon. You could dump books and forget the smites and get a bit higher, for a single use.

As for the summon, it definately caps with no remorse. You can hit 64 ab and then you're done, no song, no ava, nothing makes it go higher. Same with the ac, maybe you can get like 47-48 with stone bones, but I think it capped at 44 regardless. It tends to wander around in detect mode a lot too for no reason.

Considering the feat and skill pre-reqs and max 30 levels, bg is simply inferior to both pallie and CoT. As a multiclass option, it is nice for 5 to get the saves and divines. But compare a bg sorc vs a bg pallie and the pallie is superior because you don't need to waste anything to get it, and you get the same saves/divine options. Hand of Torm in AO is a good example of this.

BG definately could use some help, but since it is open to a lot of factions, I understand that finding balance would be difficult. Most people try it... it works out OK, but not exceptional, then you shelve it and build a different and better toon and rarely come back to the BG. Such is it's legacy.

[mining]

Well, the first point, I find fairly good, but any 30 CoT with no paladin thats built with epic smite deserves to be shot, because it has high charisma, but no saves boost from it, and it doesn't get any of the paladin smiting stuff. CoT smiters just aren't effective. I do however agree that smite evil as a neutral is a bit dumb.

BGs getting any CoT stuff (wrath bonuses, saves bonuses) would be horribly broken. They get sneak attack, which is great. At 25 BG, you get 8d6 sneak die, which is fantastic. You also get a summon, which puts a fair bit of pain on low AC stuff- it hurt Rozsudek quite a bit once, iirc. You don't need the factions which have amazing casters also getting one of the more survivable melee builds in the game.

Beyond the fact that BGs get other stuff, look at the builds possible in other factions. Rogue/BG. No divine class needed, just 15 rogue, 25 BG (for example).
How about that BG functions as a turning class, so 10 cleric, 30 BG could be a planar turner that, once using turning, then uses their bow to beat the unholy crap out of whatever its got with no AC or saves.

[frogofpeace]

30 bg monk smiter/summoner. This is a one trick pony. I still have yet to see the crit smite with scythe, but I am axpecting to clear 1200 damage. .

You need to play this more just so we can all go "ooooo!" when it hits. In fact, I volunteer to bring a good toon to Avendell for PoC smiting

[Shamedmonkey]

The comparison to CoT is stupid and is just you thinking that everyone should get a version of CoT. It's not, nor will it ever be close to CoT. First of all, you say it's more like CoT than paladin- wat? Paladin has almost the exact same set of feats as BG, the only difference being that Paladin doesn't get a summon and BG has much stiffer requirements. I do think that higher level BGs should get more bonuses, however. 20 levels + in BG should get you double duration on divine might. A better corrupt weapon, so it works against neutrals as well as good if they don't already get it.

[Tru3Fals3]

1200 smite crit with a scythe is weak (no offense intended, just as comparison to cot/pally smiter), cleared 1900 with false hope (self buffed), pure pally smiter ab is miles beyond bg, false hits 80ab smites self buffed, bg hits around low 70s iirc (thats using 4-5 low duration scrolls)

built bgs of all types, fought bgs of all types, the summon is junk really, slow, crap ac, crap disc, crap damage and single type damage, sure its got good ab which actually goes much higher then bargeld says it does, check your battle log, ive seen mambas hit at 70ab+, it also spams ikd like thats it job and it loves it but its damage/ac/disc is so low its dead before it can do anything, bg smiter is fairly lame aswell, even juicing the ab as best you can its still a miss on some cots.

monk rogue bg gets pretty nasty as does sorc bg, although sorc pally may seem more preferable it is actually not due to the race selection for sorc pally, my sorc bg was much better then my sorc pally simply because i could choose superior races which would effect the quality and way i could play it.

not sure how you were referencing hand of torm bargeld but that is a sorc bg, i get the impression you think its a pally, go pallies for AO! (seriously)

as a dip class bg is pretty useable, as a huge chunk class its fairly weak, the summon isnt worth the investment, if anything should be done its to tweak the summon, although the idea of double duration divines also sounds fair.

shamed, at a certain level the unholy sword crap does already effect neutral (maybe 30 iirc, im sure you can read a wiki, i cant ).
but try to refrain some calling someone else's ideas stupid everytime you enter an argument, thats a bad habit to get into for rl

its weird to see people arguing who have no concept of the class and have never played one, although that is kinda the norm here

[Bargeld]

We knew he was a sorc pallie or BG and due to the name, we assumed pallie (besides, that would get the same saves and AC bonuses). I'll check the log for the summon ABs... would be cool if it actually was higher than the charsheet reported. The way it appeared is that the summoning and chr bonuses of the caster and any buffs (even a str buff!) capped at 64 on the charsheet.

I don't actually know what the smite damage is gonna be, but I threw everything I could at the damage... 36 unbuffed chr (+13 mod) for div might, smite good 9, power attack and the lvl 30 corrupt weapon. Without crits, a standard hit so far has been about 260, but I think some got soaked by armor/shield. Should be x4 for scythe, so i guessed about 1200. I suppose damage could get a bit better with some buffs/items, but who puts super items on a one trick pony? She doesn't even have a white scythe yet

Double duration shield/might would be nice. Corrupt weapon is 2d6 divine vs non-evil @ 30. Would be nice if the detect token showed neutral instead of just good, but that is a minor thing.

[Twiggy]

"Balance" is such a tricky word thrown out by everyone and I must say have a one track mind on the opinion.


I personally think that each class has it's purpose, and if ur gonna go pure should be better than anything else when it comes to that purpose.

Fighter Classes- SHOULD all be able to use all weapons and armor to start off with.

Ranger- Purpose is to spot sneakers and damage a very specific group of people. More diverse than a pally but still in the same ballpark. Should be used as a dex fighter and have damage output similar to fighter vs. specified groups. Set's traps. cross between a rogue and fighter

Paladin- Evil killer with better saves than other fighting classes. Damage Vs. evil things should be incomparable to other fighter classes.

Barbarian- Two handed Damage dealer. DR should make up partly for loss of shield. (should have extra damage per hit increasing as levels increase)

Fighter- One handed weapon and shield Tank. more feats. (should have added dc vs. disarm, called shot, and KD/Imp Kd)

Caster Classes


Druid- higher effectiveness using conjuration spells. Shape shifting ability should be higher.

Cleric- Primarily healer and defense/support. Higher effectiveness while using Abjuration spells. can turn undead.

Wizard- High damage using spells with high dc. Higher effectiveness while using evocation spells

Sorcerer- cross between fighter and caster. higher effectiveness using illusion spells.

Bard- higher effectiveness using enchantment spells cross between caster and rogue.

Also if possible all mage spell damage types should be magic, all cleric damage types should be divine, and druid damage types should be natural and immune to spell resistance. bards, well bards shouldn't have any offensive magic capabilities, but instead things that affect the mind. Mages should have no saves vs against spells but be dependent on Spell resistance, Clerics should not have spell resistance but all have saves on them, and Druids should have neither saves nor spell resistance. If entangled it should be based on str of the toon. Bards same as druid but will be dependent on will saves. All IMO anyway.

other classes

Rogue- disables traps, sneaks, pick locks, should be better than anyone at doing these things.

Monk- Mage Killer and speed demon

Balance should be asking yourself why would i be this class? what will it do that no other class can do better than it? If everything did the same thing then Balance would be thrown out the window.



Also PRC's add a further dimension. Should add to what the basic classes already do



Fighter PRC's

Weapon Master- Add Ab and crit rate.

Arcane Archer- add damage and ab using ranged weapons.

Blackguard- sneaks and summon

Dwarven Defender- added DR and defense

Champion of Torm- Feats, Saves, divine wrath

Purple Dragon Knight- buffing spells.


Caster PRC's

Shifter- added shapes and diversity

Pale Master- powerful summon

Red Dragon Disciple- (pretty much shifters now)


Other PRC's

Harper Scout- really only a good addition for rangers.

Assassin- paralytic sneak attack, sneak attack

Shadow Dancer- Summon and HIPS abilty


In conclusion Balance should be making these classes do what they are suppsoed to do better than any other class and mixing classes should make them weaker in comparison. Well depending on whaat your end result you would like it to be.


P.S. it took me awhile to write this as trying to figure out the functions that some classes could do better than others aluded me for some. So this might be a lil confusing when looking at prc's. IMO not everyone is meant to beat everyone. want to beat a sneaker make a spotter. want to beat a mage make a monk. want to beat a pally, make a good aligned WM (or even nuetral aligned). every class has it's purpose and it would be nice, if unrealistic to see these classes boosted to reflect.

Also when i thought of this i kept thinking, why would i want a fighter instead of a barbarian, a wizard instead of a sorcerer etc. what would it do for me or should do that this other class shouldn't or can't. Casters should be able to magic most classes, Fighters should have amazing damage and ab, and rogues should be able to sneak and do skill stuff ie pick locks etc. if u cross class everything should diminish. can't be jack of all trades and master of them too.

[LinuxPup]

Sorcerer- cross between fighter and caster. higher effectiveness using illusion spells.

I'm confused... a sorcerer is the epitome of spell caster.

[Daral0085]

And calling a shifter a "caster" PrC is similarly ludicrous. Shifter can't cast spells while shifted, except for epic spells (which requires druid in the first place). Shifter is almost exclusively a melee class, with a few special abilities to assist.

[Bargeld]

Those descriptions simplify NWN down to the level of Final Fantasy classes. The beauty of NWN and NS in particular, is finding new combinations of classes to make a unique build. It's really no fun when there are 12 classes, and everyone has the exact same builds with the same weaknesses. This game engine and this server have been designed to avoid that.

[Shadowalker]

And calling a shifter a "caster" PrC is similarly ludicrous. Shifter can't cast spells while shifted, except for epic spells (which requires druid in the first place). Shifter is almost exclusively a melee class, with a few special abilities to assist.

While true, he is trying to sumarize and get an overview of the situation.. Twiggy been gone long time, will take a while to refresh what hasnt changed and assimulate all that has.

As to the BG talks, I havent got one so will just continue to read and absorb as much as I can. As far as discustion threads have gone here in NS4, this has be remarkably peacefull. Kudos.

[Rufio]

As to the BG talks, I havent got one so will just continue to read and absorb as much as I can. As far as discustion threads have gone here in NS4, this has be remarkably peacefull. Kudos.

Oh, yeah, i forgot to type the last line of my comment:

Everyone who disagrees is a horrible person and your opinions are not valid.

There.