Shifters Overpowered? Just Right? Glaring Weaknesses?

[cRaZy8or5e]

So much wrong with everything that you have to say. So little time to address it all.

Crazy, I agree that this game is about team work and that proper team can beat every build. In fact, one could use that argument to argue that there is no such thing as overpowered toons, because a good group can fight them all. For example when PMs got nerfed, I'd expect you to use the same "team work" argument, but you did not:

source:
http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns/viewto ... e#p1024261

Thank you for taking a quote out of context. PM summoners were one man armies for entirely different reasons than HiPSer's. When I said it takes teamwork, it was in reference to taking down any sort of uber-HiPSer, so you could say that I've argued that HiPSer's should be nerfed and or done away with, and not shifters. And I'd agree, I think HiPSing is broken. But that has nothing to do with shifters in general except for drow shifters BECAUSE they can HiPS.

EDIT: It doesn't take a team to kill most shifters, just drow shifters. Otherwise everything else goes down if a mage has the right spells slotted.

Don't get me wrong, team work does matter, but i have a problem using it as an argument because it is very subjective. Good players and good teams will know how to fight any build.

You are absolutely correct that its subjective in any context except when it comes to fighting uber HiPSer's. The only solo build that can effectively fight an uber HiPSer is a mage, preferably with a caster friendly hellball, and a good summon. Mages don't have to be able to see a target to kill it. Though it better have some discipline, circumstances have to favor the mage, hopefully it has a summon to help, otherwise it's goin to lose.

The question is simple: can one building in a ao/rk/sl/ma, using the approximately same effort (approximately same ecl and 0 books), build a toon that either efficiently mimics or counters hipser shifter in a realistic pvp scenario so lets talk about that. So far, the only good argument I've seen is that mages destroy them. Can more people confirm that? My mage can not see him so I can't say how hard/easy is to kill such build with a mage.

and the answer is a simple yes, see above about mages.

EDIT: Maybe the argument/question shouldn't be what can kill a drow shifter? but what does it take to effectively kill an uber-HiPSer. The only thing I'm confident in is a party buffed wisdom based zen arche. That or a mage with some room to manuever and discipline to allow for it to survive kd attempts that allow it to use AoE spells on said drow shifter.

Also, there are some other strong builds, like Mindflayer with DC 45 will save vulnerability ray (no spellcraft or mind effect saves counted). AC on that toon can go at least in high 70ies and once the enemy fails the will save, you or team members will rarely do under 50 dmg. Is there a reasonable way to mimic of counter that build in other factions?

First off, just becaus everyone else can't do it, doesn't make it wrong that TC CAN do it. TC doesn't get any wizards or sorcerors so by that logic, no one else should get to have mages. TC can't even build counterspellers to counter mages. They have to rely on other means of beating mages. And by the outcry from everyone not in TC, they must pretty good at it.

That's the whole point of shifters in TC. It's something they can do that not everyone can do. Is that Illithid shape by itself killing off entire parties? Not even close. It needs a couple friends to make use of its abilities. I could understand if there was an argument to be made for being able to remove the effect. But tbh, I'm not sure that it can't be removed.

Druid/Shifters are like those iPhone commercials. There's an app (shape) to do damn near anything u need. Want to hide? Theres a shape for that. Want crit immunity and DR? Theres a shape for that. Want a dragon with a useful fear aura? Want free racial SR? Want free haste to get there quicker? May I offer you 51 STR scyther sir? Please remember as a bonus, all our shapes do come with free immunity to disarm as a courtesy for doing business with us.

that's the whole point of shifters they can do just about anything. HOWEVER, they can only do one or two things at a time.

A drow shifter won't be slowing mages with slow wands, nor will it be rezzing his buddies, nor can it cast heal, greater restore, hit a paralyzed friend with an FoM wand, etc. A drow shifter won't be switching to a ranged wpn to try and escape a damage shield that an enemy has or to gun down an opponent that's running.

A shifter who concentrates on being able to do all its shapes won't be any good at any of them and is really just a bad joke.

Most good shifter builds concentrate on a couple different shapes, and more often than not, they focus on only one shape. They aren't designed to allow for a shifter to be good at all of them. The way that their ability stats are currently configured you either build to protect one of the ones that are merged from your original character, or you build to enhance the abilities of one of your epic shapes. If you try and do everything, its like any other build out there, too watered down to be good at anything.

[Daral0085]

A Drow shifter with no stealth feats at all would have better AB, AC, equal SR, and by your math 106 hide. Your math leaves out Trackless Step.

You really think anyone would be stupid enough to build a ghostwise shifter that isn't specializing in drow form? That's totally ridiculous.

Note of the obvious #1: "any old" shifter loses 25 hide because we're not idiots building ghostwise when there are 5 better race options for every other shifter build. So by Rufio's math it's 96, or if you like 100 outdoors.

Note of the obvious #2: that's "any old shifter" who has fully slotted up hide/ms gear, to the detriment of their AC, as crafted boots have 3 dodge. Since most shifters won't be wearing hide/ms gear (to the detriment of their AC and saves), they will have substantially lower hide/ms values.

Note of the obvious #3: shifter doesn't get move silently as a class skill, so the build fails against every listener unless it multi-classes in a MS class. Assuming you do, it takes 86 skill ranks and shifter only gets 4 skill points + int. So you have to take 4 extra int to pay for those ranks that you would otherwise be putting into disc, tumble, spellcraft, concentration, etc. Generally it takes rogue to get hide/ms because only rogue gets enough skill points.

So yes, I can take any shifter I like (with 17+ shifter levels), burn a bunch of skill points, lose AC and end up with a very low-level hipser. Assuming I get move silently as a class skill, or else I'll just get owned period. Good to know.

Edit: P.S. not sure how you end up with "better ab, ac" if you aren't taking weapon focuses in shortsword. You should be positively losing 3 AB unless you multiclass into a full AB progression such as fighter, barb, etc, which has its own set of win/lose tradeoffs. Notably on the "lose" side: skill points.

Edit 2: fixed typo.

[Kromix]

[Rufio]

Rufio, nothing personal man, but if you can make an SD that matches the stats you posted I'd like to see that.

I can build a SD in TC with 134 hide without bard song, or even trickery domain, with the same AC and saves.

With 72 self buffed AC, epic Dodge, and 45 SR?

No SR, but that is overrated anyway. With 45 sr being so common casters build to overcome that. It can also use scrolls and items in combat and use ranged weapons. Can your shifter do that? no.

A Drow shifter with no stealth feats at all would have better AB, AC, equal SR, and by your math 106 hide. Your math leaves out Trackless Step.

Wow, this is 100% not true. I already put weapon focus feats, armor skin, and blinding on the build I statted out. Tell me what feats you are going to add to get more ab and ac?

The only way to get more ab is to use a +8 weapon, and the only way to get more ac is to use a different pair of boots and a different shield, which means you lose another 12 hide.

There is some silly myth out there that all SD's have low ab and ac. I have a NC sd that I might bring out for you all to play with one day that has 81 ac, epic dodge, and 68 ab self buffed, and it isn't a monk (so I get shield DR to be even harder to kill), and it doesn't have divine shield (so I can run at 81 ac without rebuffing in the middle of combat). Neither of these numbers are capped, it gains the full benefits of bard song. It also has IE, making it unhittable to nearly all builds.

[Rainswept]

You misunderstand, that quote was comparing your stated drow shifter build with the Reaver hipster I use so often, the point being comparing it with a level 40 SD rogue that plenty of us are familiar with and we can at least agree is relatively useful in a fight, and fairly tough to kill, even with stats that much lower.

You can absolutely beat the numbers on the shifter drow individually, but you can't beat all of them at once, and certainly not out of RK/AO, because you're not getting 51 dex.

All that stuff is handed to them just by picking race and class. You're an excellent builder, Rufio, but the point is you don't need to be with shifters, because the free stats that come with the shapes are so very good, and you're fully aware of all that.

[Tsavong]

All this hipe about a Drow shifter hipser is very nice but I don't think it is as cheesetastick as say a Druid elemental hipser which runs around with decent hide and MS as well as high AC and crit immunity.

I think before Shifters are looked at Druid elemental forums should be looked at.

[Rufio]

You can absolutely beat the numbers on the shifter drow individually, but you can't beat all of them at once, and certainly not out of RK/AO, because you're not getting 51 dex.

I just stated out a sd build that you can do in rk with 120 hide, 72 ac, epic dodge, 59 ab, 38 fort, 36 will, and 45 spell resist.

1 less hide, About the same ab (you have 58 ab indoors, 60 ab outdoors, average of 59), same ac, 2 more fort, 7 more will, same spell resist.

if you really want more hide and ab, I could rework and have the same saves as you for 2 more dex and no stat will be lower than yours.

Seems pretty comparable to me.

[Daral0085]

You can absolutely beat the numbers on the shifter drow individually, but you can't beat all of them at once, and certainly not out of RK/AO, because you're not getting 51 dex.

You're being ridiculous, again. I have a build spec for a hipser that has 72 AC, 112 hide, epic dodge, 45 SR (not sure why you think this is so important), excellent saves, and is not a shifter. If you spec it for AB I could get everything aforementioned and get 54 AB self-buffed, before UMD. Since the build also gets UMD, you can use prayer/AVA/divine power to easily clear 60 AB. All of these numbers are self-buffed. With sufficient tweaking you can get up to 120 hide and keep all of the stats I've mentioned so far except for SR. Is it a very strong build? Absolutely. In fact, it's far stronger than the shifter hipser, because it can use ranged weapons and change damage types at will, as well as utilize UMD cheese like mords, FoM, GR, rez, etc.

As for whether you can build this in AO/RK, I leave that to the reader as an exercise.

(And yes, I'm being vague because I don't want to give away the build, but anyone who knows how to build should be able to figure it out anyway)

Anyway, if you think your reaver is strong because it gets 106 hide, you're incorrect. 120 hide is the standard for ghostwise hipsers, whether shifter or not. Rufio is absolutely correct that using shifter does *not* get you a better hide score than other comparable builds, because of the -8 from size and loss of TC job bonus. If you want to compare the shifter hipser to anything, compare it to something that is standards-compliant. Frankly, I think your overawe at shifter hipsers simply comes from low standards.

All that stuff is handed to them just by picking race and class.

Here's an exercise for you: build a ghostwise SD ("picking race and class") that pumps 43 ranks into hide, takes all +hide gear, and pumps 32 dex (base 20, +10 levelups, +2 book), with no feats, assuming TC for the job bonus, and compute its hide score. Assume shadow evade is a pitiful 1, even though you can get much more with SD > 5. What do you get? *drumroll* 110! That's not a joke ladies and gentlemen, that's a deluded AO/RK player who has low standards. Compare that to 106 (the value for your supposed shifter hipser that doesn't take any focus feats) and the difference doesn't look so big to me.

Edit: I underestimated the hide on a generic ghostwise SD by 3 points. Corrected from 107 to 110. 43 ranks + 17 dex + 4 size + 4 TC jobs + 4 owtl + 27 items + 10 ghostwise + 1 shadow evade.

[Rufio]

Oh, and the thing is, if there is a non-shifter build that has the exact same stats as a shifter build, the non-shifter build is always preferable because it can use ranged attacks and items in combat.

[neil420]

its all moot we have them we will use them nurf them or dont nurf them either way its good for us

[Daral0085]

Heh, that's cool. We know how to counter them, and for fun, we also know how to build in AO/RK.

[Mixtli]

its all moot we have them we will use them nurf them or dont nurf them either way its good for us

Entire point of factions is to have differences and limits.
We could make mages and use them... no sense at all. Sounds to me like you are bored with your faction.

[Amoenotep]

is this thread still going? has anyone made any point besides "i hate you and everything you build"?

[Joker_954]

is this thread still going? has anyone made any point besides "i hate you and everything you build"?

Thats all anyone seems to post about...

[Daral0085]

its all moot we have them we will use them nurf them or dont nurf them either way its good for us

Entire point of factions is to have differences and limits.
We could make mages and use them... no sense at all. Sounds to me like you are bored with your faction.

Yes, that's the whole point. Different factions (or perhaps more appropriately, factional alliances) have a certain mixture of builds available to them. Notable for what's missing is things like arcane casters in NC/TC, rangers and druids from MA/SL, ghostwise SDs from AO/RK, and so forth. If one were to build in other factions and use them to raid with their factional allies, such as AO/RK raiding with shifters as they seem to have begun doing, it effectively destroys the balance of the server because people can now use other factions to fill in their "holes".

NC/TC could do similarly with arcane casters and maybe assassins for fun, MA/SL can throw in a few druid dragons or shifter/RDD dragons, AO/RK can add some TC ghostwise hipsers; PMs for everyone! Anyone can cherry-pick the best builds from each faction and combine them together to form the strongest possible team that no group from any single factional alliance could possibly beat.

The net effect is disruption of factional boundaries, which will likely result in greater server balance because now everyone can take builds from any faction and mix them together. In fact, if pushed to the extreme, it negates the whole concept of factional alliance altogether. The only aspect left is the relatively meaningless hostility of certain NPCs and friendliness of other NPCs, as well as bind point limitations and so forth. I, for one, think this could actually be quite positive. At least then nobody can complain about the factions being imbalanced again. If you like it, you can just copy it and make one for yourself!

It's possible this violates the intent of the devs and the whole factional system, but so far there are no commandments against it and the DMs seem to have ruled it legitimate.

I, for one, have visions of making some RDDs.