How to compare builds

[cRaZy8or5e]

crazy to move past the "are we good builders" questions id say that out of 15 surely we'd have accidentally created a good one. and if a class is only overpowered in the hands a great builder then its not overpowered. and for 10RDD it takes a great builder and a great player and then,... its notable. Just notable. That being Trusek's Cereal Killer. That was a great RDD. But seriously, that's a year old. Wakefield was a duplicate. And we have better bards and better disarmers. That being why you don't see Serial any more. Bakura, Exile, Harrowed, and my own Tensor's builds were never really notable except for the being amusing.

The point being it takes a year of history and you've mentioned 1. I wouldn't say that's a powerhouse.

- glow -

You guys are good builders. We've already established that, BUT for some reason you guys aren't fully taking advantage of the options available. OR you don't want to because somebody else did it already, or you see some obvious counter to it and forget that another toon in your party can negate said counter. Whatever the case, you haven't done what we would have done with the PRC.

Come on you can't tell me you can't come up with a game changer with 10 RDD levels, and if you do, then I'm gonna call you a liar liar pants on fire . And I'm goin to say that burrahobbit was right when he said:

It seems to me that your pride is somehow keeping you from making rdd's correctly, your cutting off your nose to spite your face. Quit doing that.

EDIT: in hindsight you seem to think that we're saying it's overpowered, we're not. BUT we are saying its every bit as powerful a PRC as a CoT or a shifter or a PM.

[Bargeld]

Daraal... from my previous links:

The maximum skill level possible is 127, counting all items, ranks, feats, and ability score modifiers. This is a limitation of the game engine, which assigns only an 8-bit number to tracking this (half of the range is relegated to negative numbers, and one number is, of course, zero).

The max of 127, is not just a mathematical maximum, it is an engine-hardcoded maximum (i.e. going to 128 would loop it round to negative value).

And crazy, seriously, you are throwing out terms and understanding it all wrong it think. You don't need combat to start at all for circumstance modifiers to occur, they are always there. Remember seeing this before?

Active (detect) mode
Spot/listen roll: d20 + full skill

Stealth checks
Player detects stealth: 5 times per second
Player rolls for hide/move silently/spot/listen: 6 seconds

This is why HiPS spamming wins. Without hips spam, or without hips altogether, this is why spot wins.
Mining is working with bogus numbers and you are accepting it blindly. Consider that they both go in with 127 and then you can add all the modifiers you *think* you can account for. Just because his way of looking at it appears to work doesn't make it right. Mining has a hypothesis and no matter how many times you test it, it will always remain a hypothesis until you are able to back it up with fact.

Yet I present game mechanics from outside this community and you reject them. This is beginning to appear religious

Again, revisiting my original purpose with this thread was to get input from the other factions about their own PRCs and build options, as well as their opinions on enemy PRCs and options. That discussion has potential to continue by moving into the cleric vs mage realm. Another purpose was to try and come up with a positive suggestion on how to even some of these opinions out. If it came out that everyone thinks assassins are the low end of the totem pole, then maybe a good suggestion for fixing it might occur. I made a suggestion of adding +1 hide ms per 2 assassin levels. This would allow some flexibility in the races and class combos that go into it while still maintaining the same role and playability. An alternate (not mine) suggestion was to give it hips underground. Personally i don't think that is a good solution for a class whose main ability is a 1x per 5 mins or rest thing. Granted it would provide some additional longevity solo. As I type this, it reminds me of something I've always wanted to try, a ranger assassin. This gives the hips, it opens the door for easier TWF, gives some AB and fort. It might be viable.

I think BGs need love too, that might help us (and AO/RK too). But i don't have suggestions for that one yet.

[burrahobbit]

My good man this actually proves my point. You're flat wrong. We have approximately 15, 40 level characters with 10 RDD. They can't all have been poor builds. And sure, some of them were Tensor's builds that got nerfed to ~65 AC with the EMA nerf. Those went from amusing to worthless. But still, you under the impression that we haven't made 10RDD builds. This is because not a single one made you raise an eyebrow.

I dont think my eyebrow raising is a good litmus test. I'm not impressed by very much cause i am far too arrogant. 2 seconds after I see something new i automatically think 1 of 2 things, I can make that better or I can play it better

Maybe you haven't made them correctly, or maybe i didnt notice or care that they were 10 RDD's. All i ever see out of AO is pure fighters and 30 RDD's. I know the builds exists, i had plans to make several b4 I unceremoniously skipped town out of AO. I dont think RDD's are overpowered, but there arent a weak PRC. Why must you pee on my leg and tell me its raining.

Is unceremoniously actually a word?

Assasins just might be another one of those PRC's that you have to actually be good to play. You wont see me starting one anytime soon. Good thing you got lots of other options in SL The problem with boosting hide ms is the second they are unspotable they just became overpowered. Give em a 5 ab 5 ac token like pure fighters get, after something like 20 assasin lvls or 30 or whatever. If its a focused assasin a little ab ac jump could be fun Maybe a small hide/ms jump, as it is right now my unfocused spotters can see your assasins so i am guessing you havent had a chance to gear them out or maybe this is another instance of builder error

It wouldnt be 127, its 255. At 256 you would loop unless i am greatly mistaken.

[Lokey]

If linux has tested and comfirmed that 127 is not the cap that a characters skill has before going into a roll, I would ask that maybe he confirm or deny my proposition, because it makes complete programming sense to me. The final values can change once the roll has occurred based on those 'circumstance' modifiers and can go above your 127. That doesn't mean that the toon had higher than 127 going into that roll.

That would only make sense if 1) the skill field is a signed 8 bit integer, 2) the final calculation uses a larger data type (e.g. 16 bit integer). Even then, they would need to have some overflow protection with the skill field to prevent your skills from "rolling over" to -125 or something like that.

I suppose the other option is 3) they specifically coded in the logic to restrict skills to 127 or less. Given that the number is 127, I'm betting this is unlikely because it's precisely at the maximum value for a signed 8 bit integer. However, that would explain why people's skill values don't overflow and kill their character when they get "too skilled".

Thus ends another off topic branch of conversation.

This. Standard bio int goes up to 2 billion odd, I think it's something they're calling some kind of byte in the docs (don't ask).

The script rank check is capped at 127, and there is no static carry around value like ab, etc for skills. They're calculated when needed, and I guess some main GetSkillCheckModifier() function is what's doing it (of course we've never seen spaghetti from Bio before lol). So that leaves situational bonuses, etc...

This is slightly different from some other cap types due to data fields used on char sheet or in combat log.

[mining]

Here is my method of spotting/hiding.

2 NPCs that don't hate each other, any two. Stick them on the same map. Sum up +50 cap, 43 ranks, 10 ESF, 3 SF, 2 stealthy. 108. Add 80 base dex (+35) and we get 143 hide. This is a PC. The spotter has +50, 43, 10, 3, 2 alert, 2 blooded, keen senses as a bonus feat, total of 110 spot. Now, one of them gets +13 wis, for 123 spot. This is enough to get a 127 hide foe. The other has 143 spot.

From here, enter stealth mode, not moving, while they are NOT moving or in combat. One method of doing this is entering in GSanc (untested, I used a different map).
This map MUST be an interior, with no modifiers, no changes AT all. Not nightime, daytime. Basically this eliminates all mods.

Finally, remove GSanc( or wait it out ) and sit there, waiting for one to see you. IF both see you, cap is 127. Else, cap is not.

[Bargeld]

Just pointing it out, but in order for your first spotter to miss, you would need 122 + 20 on d20 = 142 vs 143. You also need to leave it there until you are 100% sure that a 20 on d20 has occurred. Make sure those NPCs are facing you and don't wander!

GSanct wont work too. They might have spotted you while moving around, but were unable to take action on you. Once gsanct wears off, both would attack. Invis would be a better method.
What about size modifiers?
What about distance?
Is it nighttime (clock wise) on a daytime map? Does that actually have an effect?

Also, things like racial affinities and ranger bonuses vs favored do not add to the base skill, but to the circumstance. So elf affinity would give +2 to the spotter's d20 roll: 122 + 20 + 2 = 144.
These are the things that were my point earlier, you think you're able to accomodate for everything that goes into it but it is very easy to be unaware of even 1 or 2 modifiers.

And listen modifiers and mechanics are different.

[mining]

Just pointing it out, but in order for your first spotter to miss, you would need 122 + 20 on d20 = 142 vs 143. You also need to leave it there until you are 100% sure that a 20 on d20 has occurred. Make sure those NPCs are facing you and don't wander!

GSanct wont work too. They might have spotted you while moving around, but were unable to take action on you. Once gsanct wears off, both would attack. Invis would be a better method.
What about size modifiers?
What about distance?
Is it nighttime (clock wise) on a daytime map? Does that actually have an effect?

Also, things like racial affinities and ranger bonuses vs favored do not add to the base skill, but to the circumstance. So elf affinity would give +2 to the spotter's d20 roll: 122 + 20 + 2 = 144.
These are the things that were my point earlier, you think you're able to accomodate for everything that goes into it but it is very easy to be unaware of even 1 or 2 modifiers.

And listen modifiers and mechanics are different.

Daytime, NPCs fixed, wielding ranged weapons, both medium races. Leaving it for 20 mins should do.

[Lokey]

Throw this on perception, clear all other script hooks:

Code: Select all

void main()
{
    object oSeen = GetLastPerceived();
    if (GetLastPerceptionSeen())
    {
        SpeakString("I see " + GetName(oSeen), TALKVOLUME_SHOUT);
        WriteTimestampedLogEntry(GetName(OBJECT_SELF) + " saw " + GetName(oSeen));
    }
}

Perhaps a SetActionMode(OBJECT_SELF, ACTION_MODE_DETECT, TRUE) on spawn handle. But I think npcs only roll once per round regardless.

[cRaZy8or5e]

And crazy, seriously, you are throwing out terms and understanding it all wrong it think. You don't need combat to start at all for circumstance modifiers to occur, they are always there. Remember seeing this before?

I didn't say that modifiers only occur when combat begins, I said that:

In fact it should have shown that a HiPSer would be able to hide regardless once combat was engaged due to the circumstance modifiers being in the HiPSer's favor.

I guess its good that you think I'm throwing around terms and understanding it all wrong. I think the same way about you . Obviously we're excellent communicators.

[Bargeld]

Net +5 DC for the spotter: +10 from being in combat and -5 from standing still
If the spotter is moving it's another +5, so net +10 DC, in combat, while moving.
If the target stands still then another +5, net +15 in combat, no one moving.
This happens for the very end of the round, until the begginning of the next, where the hider would take another swing. Essentially the spotter is at 25% now: 127 + d20 = 128 - 147 vs 127 + 15 = 142, leaving a 5/20. So I concede that I didn't understand what you were getting at with that previous statement. Now I do.
I still want to point out that this is a 127 hide HiPSer only, spamming in combat. These are the numbers that define why all call it cheese. It's still slated to the spotter on a non-HiPS build even when using darkness to emulate HiPS in the same manner. In most cases you would need racial darkness, which means no ghostwise, therefore the 127 is really not attainable and the spotter is back to trump.

So far Lokey has confirmed that my description is accurate and we are still waiting on mining's experiment (which had numbers that weren't viable in his first description of the test.)

To bring it all back to a meaningful point (not neccessarily my first point) I would suggest that NC and TC have the top tier melee combos at the moment. In addition, NC is the only faction that can do AQ3 dc 48 implode (which includes full disc even!) I caught wind of a level ~16-18 shifter solo in Ice Giants yesterday who 'was doing just fine with a cleric'. At the time I was using a monk stunner @ lvl 22 in daytime skara, running away from a lot of battles, and I thought that was pretty exceptional. I tried Ice giants at 17, 18, and 19 and got whooped. I tried again at 20 with new gear and it was tough, but do-able. But my build is available everywhere except MA.

I think that you guys have done a great job of keeping the power of your builds on the down-low up to this point. Last time a made a fuss like this was when AAs had a DC that matched an assassin. When I recognize that something is unbalanced I tend to want to change it. I've been trying to figure out good solutions/suggestions and I'm still stumped, which is why I brought it here. I've actually gotten better feedback from the masses than I expected. But I am starting to feel discouraged as I realize that I'm basically talking to a few specific groups: the entire NC/TC crowd, the devs/DMs, and mamba. I shouldn't expect many suggestions on how to nerf NC/TC from this crowd, so I guess I'll leave it alone now and go build my army of mages.

[cRaZy8or5e]

I think that you guys have done a great job of keeping the power of your builds on the down-low up to this point. Last time a made a fuss like this was when AAs had a DC that matched an assassin. When I recognize that something is unbalanced I tend to want to change it. I've been trying to figure out good solutions/suggestions and I'm still stumped, which is why I brought it here. I've actually gotten better feedback from the masses than I expected. But I am starting to feel discouraged as I realize that I'm basically talking to a few specific groups: the entire NC/TC crowd, the devs/DMs, and mamba. I shouldn't expect many suggestions on how to nerf NC/TC from this crowd, so I guess I'll leave it alone now and go build my army of mages.

I agreed with your fuss over the AA's having a more powerful DC than an assassin.

I'll concede that mining's testing doesn't necessarily prove or disprove an ability cap to 127. But I believe it provides strong evidence that it doesn't exist.

How can we have kept the 'power of [our] builds on the down-low' when we use them all the time, and the devs and dm's play similar and even better builds. CoT is one of the toughest classes as far as saves, and an undispellable one time buff that lasts for almost as long as blinding speed. However, the best AB builds are AA's and weaponmasters, by far.

BG is not the juggernaut that a paladin is, BUT it has a melee class BAB, it gets some abilities that make it very tough, and it gets a juggernaut of a summon. A summon that people can't ignore.

You also get one of the best AA combinations on the server, though it needs some help to buff. But once it is buffed, it's nigh unkillable without having a mage, or superior firepower (more archers/slingers than SL has mk/AA's). SL gets all three classes that help or outright allow for epic dodge, and all three classes that provide uncanny dodge. I've heard a rumor that a CoT is better than an AA, well it is more versatile (it doesn't have to rely on a bow) but in the cases where the AA got the drop on my CoT I've lost badly, but in cases where the CoT had an AVA, and a bard song, and divine favor and divine wrath already up, and could switch to a sling, and the AA took two rounds to cast buffs, then my CoT would win the damage race. Otherwise crits are still king.

48-47 DC AQed imploders are really really nice to have. No one can make em like we can. But building and equipping for fort spellsaves is not impossible. And SL/AO/RK/MA have the ultimate counter, its called a sorceror. It can counterspell any cleric out there, and gets more spells than any build out there. Clerics can't counterspell a sorceror. NC and TC don't get counterspellers, not universal counterspellers anyway (though a cleric can counter other clerics effectively). And when something needs killing, nothing can kill like a mage. Does it need help? Is a mage gonna win a fight against 4 or 5 people, not unless the group sucks or have obvious weaknesses that the sorc is built to exploit. But one on one, a sorc (or a wizard slotted for the fight) can take on and win a fight with just about anything out there (well anything but AA's, and high SR monks). If you're sorc is having trouble penetrating racial SR after hitting the target with a mord, well, I hope the benefits you got from the low penetration value were worth it. In some cases, the sorc/mk/sd raiders (a la shadowcaster) I think they probably were worth it when you consider the AC a person can get, on a HiPSer no less.

Bargeld you really should build some shifters and CoT's for yourself. Get a feel for how they play. That's what's hard about this discussion, we do build in other factions and do build counters to these so-called OPed builds. We've been in fights where the numbers were even annd had the the fight be in the balance (it wasn't obvious who was goin to win). In fights where one side had a bard and the other didn't, then that was almost always the side that won. Clerics could help extend a fight, especially on the NC/TC side, but they weren't the game changer that a pure bard was.

[Bargeld]

Bargeld you really should build some shifters and CoT's for yourself. Get a feel for how they play.

Great response overall and I think I will need to take you up on this suggestion. Perhaps my priorities have been skewed trying to stay exclusive to SL (Thorac and I being the only ones who've shyed away from MADD even). Of course everyone loves their 300+ crit meleers, DR barbs, and 500+ smiters (even BGs!) but I suppose there is more to be had than just melee fun.

Thanks

I still want my HiPS ranger assassin tho!

[mining]

Yeah, I agree with Crazy.

Also, the main reason why I was able to solo ice giants (at 20) with a cleric helping, is that I was getting... 6 AC, 5 AB, huge amounts of damage and cure crits/haste directed to me. Cleric / dex WM / bard of those levels could solo the *outer* rooms too.

Trust me, I wish I could actually solo ice giants by myself.

[Shhhhhhh]

Interesting use of the word solo.

[Kromix]

Yeah, I agree with Crazy.

Also, the main reason why I was able to solo ice giants (at 20) with a cleric helping, is that I was getting... 6 AC, 5 AB, huge amounts of damage and cure crits/haste directed to me. Cleric / dex WM / bard of those levels could solo the *outer* rooms too.

Trust me, I wish I could actually solo ice giants by myself.

HAhahahah i solo stuff with a party