How to compare builds

[Amoenotep]

with the numbers of players with no concentration on their builds...you only need about 15 taunt to be effective

[Bargeld]

Agreed, usually only casters have conc, maybe a pure fighter or something with a lot of spare skills (like a 56 ac assassin, who you really need to taunt in the first place).

Only because it is a timely moment, I'll throw it out there again; SL doesn't have much that can stand up to the RDD or the shifters that are being thrown around here. And those that might pose a challenge are all available elsewhere. I'd be ok with all of that if the spotters didn't trump the sneakies. Shadow Legion implies sneaky folk (to some degree) but since the best sneakies are all able to be detected, all that is left is the mage. Maybe that's the key for us here, an army of mording greasing bigsing IGMers who run around in circles. All with 5 sd.

[Daral0085]

Sneakers, and the closely associated HiPSers, are very powerful on this server. That's why dragons are popular, construct shifters, and then of course the plethora of spotter builds. I don't think I make a build that doesn't have spot because I don't want to get owned. It's pretty natural. That said, I can assure you that many builds do not have keen senses, which can be manipulated by skilled HiPSers to devastating effect. You might think sneakers are a spent card, but I'm happily building 2 of them right now and spec'ing a 3rd.

[Shamedmonkey]

Agreed, usually only casters have conc, maybe a pure fighter or something with a lot of spare skills (like a 56 ac assassin, who you really need to taunt in the first place).

Only because it is a timely moment, I'll throw it out there again; SL doesn't have much that can stand up to the RDD or the shifters that are being thrown around here. And those that might pose a challenge are all available elsewhere. I'd be ok with all of that if the spotters didn't trump the sneakies. Shadow Legion implies sneaky folk (to some degree) but since the best sneakies are all able to be detected, all that is left is the mage. Maybe that's the key for us here, an army of mording greasing bigsing IGMers who run around in circles. All with 5 sd.

You suck at playing HiPSter if you think that spotter always trumps SD.

EDIT: I'm probably misreading you, actually. You're probably thinking of Assassins as toons that always get trumped by spotters, which is true. My apologies.

[Bargeld]

Spamming HiPS doesn't count as 'playing it well'. Nor will it hide you from the 120 spotter listeners (reliably). Besides, using the game mechanics like that just isn't fun nor in the spirit of good play.

I make my statement based on a spotter with keen senses and 113 spot who has yet to come up against a sneaky that she can't reliably see. I also know that 100-105 hide / 95-100 ms is really the threshold for all sneakies barring an SD with more than 5 levels. Add a bard for another +8.

I'll use a common defense that has been thrown around here: if a high class lvl SD was really all that great, you'd see a lot of em (no pun intended). Once you PRC in SD and dedicate to go more than 5, you are left with pitiful ab ac and damage, at least in SL (I would think the same is true elsewhere, but I've never tried an SD pally or ranger etc.)

[Shamedmonkey]

...really? McNinja has 125 hide.

[Bargeld]

And Gem can see him self buffed. Remember, once you are spotted, you don't disappear spontaniously.

[Shamedmonkey]

And Gem can see him self buffed.

No, you saw McNinja when I was para'd for a long time and the Ghostwise token had worn out, I didn't have a bard, and I wasn't using One with the Land Scrolls.

[Bargeld]

Let me also ask... is Mc Ninja a combo available in SL? And could an SL build make a hider with those numbers AND still do damage (keep in mind, we don't have any sneak immune classes, but our enemies do)

[Shamedmonkey]

Let me also ask... is Mc Ninja a combo available in SL? And could an SL build make a hider with those numbers AND still do damage?

Oh yes.

[Bargeld]

Damn you respond too quickly while i keep editing - I guess i should stop that.

[Bargeld]

As a base: feats, skills, abilities and gear get you to 77 for hide MS spot and listen.

Your average non-ghostwise/non-high lvl SD hits 104/97 hide ms before a few other factors. Ghostwise is Mc Ninja's trump card to help get to 127 hide, but there are a number of ways to cap it at that, BUT they involve bard song, trick domain, higher lvl SD and/or OwL scroll/spell.

Your average spotter will get +30 with true sight + c/c & no focus (107 spot). +4 for jobs. Add some gear on top, a scroll, and a bard and you can hit 127 easily. ESF div is the quick route to 127 spot: 2 spells.

Your average bard/UMD'r hits +30 listen with amp + c/c and no focus (107 listen). +4 for jobs. If it's a bard, count that song as a self buff. Add one, maybe 2, pieces of gear and you are at 127. ESF div is the fast track to 127 listen, albeit one piece of gear harder than spot.

Getting the stealths require a TON of effort, gear, and probably devotion in one of a few specific classes (SD or clc), or a UMD class. And many have shorter durations compared to the detects.
Getting the detects *could* be as easy as 2 spells. Extended for much love.
Once detected, you don't automatically rehide.

I shall repeat: detect > sneak.

And all of these, both sneakies and detectors are available in every faction. SD's excluded from AO is the only exception. SL is not a specialized sneaky faction as logic might imply. Multiple other factions have the same sneak, detect, mage, and AA options that we do, yet we are lacking the melee PRCs and options that the rest of you all have.

[mining]

I have a planned 131 hide build (127 isn't the cap, dammit) with 29 rogue levels.
Once you look at equalities (wis/dex, skill ranks/SF, etc.) its fairly clear that hider has a small boost/ equal; in the form of either ranger or small size (blooded + race vs 1 of the 2).

With a total of 7 boots, 7 robes, 7 cloak, 2 rings, 2 SD, 4 OWtL scroll/cast, 4 black shield, 10 GW +4 jobs
+47 hide. Now, even someone with 3 more ranks than you will still get snuck on occasion, and with all else being equal...

[Bargeld]

Ranger feat will not cap the +50, so yeah I'll give that one to you. The small size is a circumstance bonus, they can be equaled out by other circumstance bonuses (light sources, proximity/distance, etc.)
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Spot

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Skill_rank
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Category_talk ... _skills.3F
enjoy your 131!

[mining]

Ranger feat will not cap the +50, so yeah I'll give that one to you. The small size is a circumstance bonus, they can be equaled out by other circumstance bonuses (light sources, proximity/distance, etc.)
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Spot

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Skill_rank
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Category_talk ... _skills.3F
enjoy your 131!

Actually, given that small size and ranger are both circumstantial as far as I can tell from testing, (its an environmental bonus, but it may just be small size)
* +10 DC if the spotter is in combat.
* +5 DC if the target is standing still.
* -5 DC if the spotter is standing still.
* Size modifiers (tiny: +8, small: +4, medium: 0, large: -4, huge: -8).
* Area spot check modifiers.
* +5 DC for stealthed players (only), if they are in the back arc.
* +5 DC at night if the spotter does not have a light (or darkvision).
* -10 DC at night if the target has a light on them.

Then... 141 is really likely because of how combat works, and even more if I decide not to move. Thanks for helping my position