How to compare builds

[rocketkai]

Oh really? try to build a 20dru/2ftr/18DwD or 20dru/6mnk/14DwD or 21dru/whatever/14DwD? with like selfbuffed 60ab/80ac with immu ch and 21/- dr... I couldn't say those build are not good for pvp.. Wait, I guess ya guys should have already built a lot of them and ya dont need me to tell ya how to build them, right?

or spell resist
this thread is based on pvp standings mainly
dwd just isnt good for pvp
yeah they sustain alot of damage
but for pvp they just dont have much use

Or even (gadzooks) a DWD with some cleric in it, for the "Full Heal" spells of dooom.

Yup, like a 19cleric/1whatever/20DwD... looks like when everyone talking about DwD, it must be a pure DwD, but when its other PRCs, it could be whatever combos? lol

[BlkMamba]

Cause both of you miss the point...
to get the good dwd bonuses, need 30 lvl's

we got plenty of crossers out there
and there's so so, still nothing to be to impressive

bottom line and yeah mineing i talked to you yesterday about it
when RDD's were at the lvl that shifters are now
there's a 15 page thread on why they needed to be nerfed
so, take a look in the mirror
shifters should be taken down to that lvl as well
or are you saying RDD's need to be brought back up?

make up your mind

Mamba...

[Chernobyl_Glow]

20dru/2ftr/18DwD <--- this is an elemental build and that's the only reason it works. which might say more about shifters "et al" than it does about dwd.
20dru/6mnk/14DwD <--- do monk benefits even pass to shifted form? still an elemental is what
19cleric/1whatever/20DwD <--- once some uses a scroll and dispels you are you won't you just be something with even worse ab and a 21 DR?

but really, why are we all attacking dwd anyway? we've built them. they are nice. they have some benefits. they mix nicely with other things when you're creative. but you've listed nothing new. (well we never built that cleric but similar) same with 10rdd builds. they are nice but really aren't automatic powerhouses.

if you'd like to prove your point about how grand dwd's or rdd's are then name one. name any 10RDD or any DWD that changed the outcome of a battle. otherwise, if we're talking about OP stuff let's keep focus on shifters and CoTs. they force the opposition to use strategy. that isn't the case for Dwd or Rdd.

i didn't intend to get drawn into this silly whiner discussion but here i am. more or less no one from pwnd cares how this conversation turns out. but its really dumb to start trying to deflect attention from the shifter arguments by acting as if dwd's are game changers and we just don't know how to build.

- glow -

[rocketkai]

No way they are at the same level, at least not for the three-classe shifters. I can bet with ya that most of the current RDD dragons or even the dru dragons can still eat the so-called op kobold alive if 1 vs. 1.
Before the RDD nerf, you can get a real monster easily with party buffed 74-76ab/82-84ac or 92-94ac if with i.e. Not to mention their insane 25% immu to all physicals and 8d8+str mod+2d10 fire damage.

[BlkMamba]

been there done that,. 1 on 1 self buffed 30 RDD vs pre-epic shifter, the shifter smokes him
1 on 1 30 RDD vs druid dragon, druid dragon wins

30 RDD cant even touch the shifter hardly
shifter hits the RDD 50%+ crits occational

rethink your argument, that one isnt working

[rocketkai]

My point is very clear and straightforward and its all related to mamba's anouncement that DwD build is not good for pvp.

You dont need to change the battle with DwD, but if you think the shifters or kobold (isn't it the one ya guys hate the most?) are too OP, then just bring on those builds I listed. To see if they are still so powerful or not? We all know the story of rock-paper-scissors. BTW, there are a lot of other builds or strategies to own those shifter builds, we all know that, but ya guys just intend to ignore them.

20dru/2ftr/18DwD <--- this is an elemental build and that's the only reason it works. which might say more about shifters "et al" than it does about dwd.
20dru/6mnk/14DwD <--- do monk benefits even pass to shifted form? still an elemental is what
19cleric/1whatever/20DwD <--- once some uses a scroll and dispels you are you won't you just be something with even worse ab and a 21 DR?

but really, why are we all attacking dwd anyway? we've built them. they are nice. they have some benefits. they mix nicely with other things when you're creative. but you've listed nothing new. (well we never built that cleric but similar) same with 10rdd builds. they are nice but really aren't automatic powerhouses.

if you'd like to prove your point about how grand dwd's or rdd's are then name one. name any 10RDD or any DWD that changed the outcome of a battle. otherwise, if we're talking about OP stuff let's keep focus on shifters and CoTs. they force the opposition to use strategy. that isn't the case for Dwd or Rdd.

i didn't intend to get drawn into this silly whiner discussion but here i am. more or less no one from pwnd cares how this conversation turns out. but its really dumb to start trying to deflect attention from the shifter arguments by acting as if dwd's are game changers and we just don't know how to build.

- glow -

[rocketkai]

I got a rdd, very crappy one, ya wanna test with me in game? lol

been there done that,. 1 on 1 self buffed 30 RDD vs pre-epic shifter, the shifter smokes him
1 on 1 30 RDD vs druid dragon, druid dragon wins

30 RDD cant even touch the shifter hardly
shifter hits the RDD 50%+ crits occational

rethink your argument, that one isnt working

[burrahobbit]

if you'd like to prove your point about how grand dwd's or rdd's are then name one. name any 10RDD or any DWD that changed the outcome of a battle. otherwise, if we're talking about OP stuff let's keep focus on shifters and CoTs. they force the opposition to use strategy. that isn't the case for Dwd or Rdd.

i didn't intend to get drawn into this silly whiner discussion but here i am. more or less no one from pwnd cares how this conversation turns out. but its really dumb to start trying to deflect attention from the shifter arguments by acting as if dwd's are game changers and we just don't know how to build.

- glow -

I cant name any 10 RDD that changed the outcome of a fight because your not making them. That's your fault not ours. Do we have to come to AO to show you how to make them? Of course not. If you cant make a 10 RDD a game changer than i am sry, you dont know how to build. We all know that you gents in fact do know how to build, some of the better on the server *cringes* BUT your are making the choice to not make them and focusing your efforts on other "stuff". It seems to me that your pride is somehow keeping you from making rdd's correctly, your cutting off your nose to spite your face. Quit doing that.

You dont need 30 dwd to make it work. Why do you guys keep trying to put 30 lvls in your prestige classes.

I think i can make a dwd that can kill cot's and shifters. Here's a thought, howabout you add a little mage.

P.S. I have never had a 40 that didnt get nerfed, get over it. If they nerfed your gimmick toon and now its worthless, STOP MAKING TOONS THAT RELY ON A GIMMICK!! Problem solved. <-----my favorite chars are gimmick chars so i feel your pain, but then i laugh at it

P.P.S. I think shifters should lose the double dodge AC. I've always thought that, but lokey seems to love shifters and what the devs love they tend to boost. Look at pup and his bards hehehehehe, well up untill a few days ago anyway. On the other hand, igms dont care what ac you have.

P.P.P.S If you run into a room crowded with CoT's with a 55 ac char, dont complain about how fast you die. That doesnt make CoT's over powered, it makes you stupid. <------when i say "you" i dont mean GLOW

[Amoenotep]

this whole thread is full of win....it makes me laugh

[cRaZy8or5e]

Dwd's don't get taunt. and most dwarfs suffer a charisma penalty. It be hard to make a good taunter. Nice idea though. Your right that being flatfooted while taunting would be no concern for a dwd.

Even a Str based DWD has trouble dealing enough damage to be more than a thorn even if AB were good enough to hit often. They really are only valuable in PVM cause if we brought one in battle you'd just ignore it until everyone else was dead.

- glow -

paladin does get taunt. (Is this the only way to build, no of course not, but if you want to be able to hit something and are having trouble getting that AB up, build with paladin.)

By the builds you’ve posted you’re caught up in doing crit immune druid builds. Uhhhh . . . Neat. Try a good ol’ fashioned pally/rogue/DwD. They’re boring, tough, get lots of neat skills, etc.

With the amount of gear available that provide taunt, it’s VERY easy to make a good taunter. You don’t even have to max taunt in order to taunt just about everything on the server. That’s even considering such wondrous things as Kultach rings. You’re usually goin to be taunting dex toons anyway, notorious for their low concentration/constitution anyway. Try it you’ll like it .

AND you do have game changer RDD's. Fafnir, Cannibal, Smok, etc, killer AB, tons of hp, great DR. CoT's can't go toe to toe with them, (unless they got a bard and the dragon doesn’t), and it takes several of us swinging away to kill them. Usually we have clerics harm/inflict crit in order to do enough damage quickly to kill them, otherwise they eat us. Literally.

been there done that,. 1 on 1 self buffed 30 RDD vs pre-epic shifter, the shifter smokes him
1 on 1 30 RDD vs druid dragon, druid dragon wins

30 RDD cant even touch the shifter hardly
shifter hits the RDD 50%+ crits occational

rethink your argument, that one isnt working

So apparently the shifter/druid dragons which have 6 more dex ac (28 vs 16 according to NS4wiki) are whoopin up on RDD dragons? The +4 dodge AC that they get, in addition to the dex AC for a net 10 AC is more than the RDD 8 (draconic armor). So they get more ac there, additionally an RDD dragon multiclassed for AB, can’t get more than 26 BAB. In wilderness areas this is less than a shifter druid which gets a +2 wilderness bonus (nature’s sense). So RDD dragons were dumbed down to the same form as the druids with less AC . . . why? Am I missing something, probably? Monk multiclassed RDD dragons, do they still get a wisdom bonus? I really don't know.

Of course you do have more shape changes now and there’s still that 30d10 breath weapon, but imo there are too many ways to get evasion into a toon these days. Personally it made more sense to me when an RDD dragon was at the very least recognizably better offensively head to head than shifters and druids. IF the dex had stayed the same THEN I think the argument that RDD’s fell off too much starts (emphasize STARTS) to go away.

SO, just based off the numbers available, either RDD dragons need a little love, or druid/shifters need to be clipped a bit. I would like to see druids clipped BUT then I don't want to see the strength back up to what was it 67? before? Or were those just my nightmares

Having said ALL of that, RDD as a class, and especially for multiclass purposes is one of the most powerful on the server. The sheer amount of abilities you get make it a game changer, BUT you all know that.

[Rufio]

No way they are at the same level, at least not for the three-classe shifters. I can bet with ya that most of the current RDD dragons or even the dru dragons can still eat the so-called op kobold alive if 1 vs. 1.
Before the RDD nerf, you can get a real monster easily with party buffed 74-76ab/82-84ac or 92-94ac if with i.e. Not to mention their insane 25% immu to all physicals and 8d8+str mod+2d10 fire damage.

Druid dragons beat my kobold 1 on 1

[Rufio]

if you'd like to prove your point about how grand dwd's or rdd's are then name one. name any 10RDD or any DWD that changed the outcome of a battle. otherwise, if we're talking about OP stuff let's keep focus on shifters and CoTs. they force the opposition to use strategy. that isn't the case for Dwd or Rdd.

Man, Newcastle ALE raided TC one day, so I ran up to him and took a swing at him with my kobold and got a "your weapon is not effective" message, with a freaking scythe. So after a few minutes I got some crits in and got him down in hp a bit and he pops off a healing domain empowered full heal. That was ridiculous.

Anyway, WHY IN THE WORLD IS NO ONE BUILDING 10 RDD BUILDS? Holy freaking crap that is an amazing class dump. You realize that on most servers that is considered one of the most powerful prestige classes? They get a boost from perma-haste and multiple prestige classes and all that cheese, but still, you are only restricting yourself by always going pure. Going pure pretty much means you are guaranteed to be limited by the power the devs choose to give the class.

[Daral0085]

why? Am I missing something, probably?

Monk + RDD gets 5 base attacks/rd + 1 for haste + 1 for flurry = 7.

Druid or Shifter dragons get 3 base attacks/rd + 1 for haste = 4.

In a 1v1 dragon matchup with no gimmicks, since both sides get high AB and relatively low AC, the RDD handily beats either Druid or Shifter. There are a couple ways for Druid or Shifters to get around this, like throwing down SoV, hellball, fear aura, stunning fist (which RDD also gets, so that one is advantage RDD since they get it free with monk). Essentially the Druid/Shifter need to take advantage of their non-melee perks/abilities, since in pure melee the RDD just rips them apart.

It's not a landslide by any means, but from my experience it's definitely advantage RDD. A smart Druid/Shifter beats a dumb RDD, but a dumb RDD beats a dumb Druid/Shifter. A smart druid/shifter against a smart RDD is a tossup depending on the situation and who outplays who, tactically speaking.

[Tru3Fals3]

Oh really? try to build a 20dru/2ftr/18DwD or 20dru/6mnk/14DwD or 21dru/whatever/14DwD? with like selfbuffed (almost the same with no buffs) 60ab/80ac with immu ch and 21/- dr... I couldn't say those build are not good for pvp.. Wait, I guess ya guys should have already built a lot of them and ya dont need me to tell ya how to build them, right?

been there, done that, your numbers are off, still cant stand up to a decent golem, no spell immunities, no keen sense, no regen, loss of flexibility mentioned by crazy.

and crazy, pally dwd is OK, just OK, but what your really trying to taunt is the killers with high ac and high skills

23-10-10-08-10-5= 67 taunt? not gonna do it to be honest, unless you wanna start dropping disc for more taunt which we all know is a brilliant idea.... nobody needs weapons

i spent a lot of time looking into dwds before i saw what anything else can do and they just aren't impressive, gimme something with keen senses and it would change my mind though.

if dwds are so awesome, why doesnt everyone have one lol??

edit* maybe if i ever finish Iron Maiden she will change my mind about them. you know what, thats what ill do, ill focus soley on my 2 new dwds that have all the tricks and throw them at you when they get 40 and see what happens.

[Tru3Fals3]

if you'd like to prove your point about how grand dwd's or rdd's are then name one. name any 10RDD or any DWD that changed the outcome of a battle. otherwise, if we're talking about OP stuff let's keep focus on shifters and CoTs. they force the opposition to use strategy. that isn't the case for Dwd or Rdd.

Man, Newcastle ALE raided TC one day, so I ran up to him and took a swing at him with my kobold and got a "your weapon is not effective" message, with a freaking scythe. So after a few minutes I got some crits in and got him down in hp a bit and he pops off a healing domain empowered full heal. That was ridiculous.

Anyway, WHY IN THE WORLD IS NO ONE BUILDING 10 RDD BUILDS? Holy freaking crap that is an amazing class dump. You realize that on most servers that is considered one of the most powerful prestige classes? They get a boost from perma-haste and multiple prestige classes and all that cheese, but still, you are only restricting yourself by always going pure. Going pure pretty much means you are guaranteed to be limited by the power the devs choose to give the class.

i have 3 rdds, one is a dragon.