How to compare builds

[Alkapwn]

And we've only discussed melee so far... ab + ac. I have yet to get to the cleric vs mage thing. Although it was mentioned at one point about domains and how that changes flavor. Thats a load of bullfarb. 80% of clerics are probably trick/travel. I would bet that 15% probably have trick OR travel + war.

i have 3 clerics with Animal/Strength domains lol
Best cleric Domain : MAGIC all the way
Unless your Shamed then you have to take Healing for sure......

I love clerics

I got a hillarious one coming up out of SL. Prepare to rip out your hair lol

[Bargeld]

Thats because ALL of the remaining 5% are yours

[Rufio]

The "shifters have a bunch of forms that they can use" argument isn't really that valid. If you want to be good in melee, you have to focus on 1 form to optimize its stats and take the proper weapon focuses. Shifters are too feat starved for more weapon focuses in most cases. Also, most shifters are dead if they unshift in melee, so it isn't really an option in the heat of battle.

Most special abilites suck. With the basic forms, drider is the only one with a special ability I would ever de-shift to use. Outsiders and constructs get some nice things, but they can't be multiclassed out of druid and shifter, and it is the multiclassed shifters that people have been complaining about, not the pure shifters. Outsiders are terrible in melee, and constructs don't really get much ab and ac, they just get the nice damage reduction and immunites.

You are right that my duel example is a small sample size, but it is better than no sample size.

[Bargeld]

So the problem is not that 'shifters have different forms for different scenarios' isn't valid. The prob seems to be current implementation. Hence my desire for change. If TC wants a melee'r make a fighter or a barb like the rest of us (except NC and their triple play of melee PRCs of whirling evil destruction). Your shifters should be flexible, not comparable.

[Eldaquen]

Your right you did Bargeld. I was just trying to make a case for different type of measurement, is all.

[Rufio]

So the problem is not that 'shifters have different forms for different scenarios' isn't valid. The prob seems to be current implementation. Hence my desire for change. If TC wants a melee'r make a fighter or a barb like the rest of us (except NC and their triple play of melee PRCs of whirling evil destruction). Your shifters should be flexible, not comparable.

Yeah, not a bad idea really. I don't think shifters are overpowered obviously, but if they did get nerfed as far as ab and ac goes, their flexibility would definitely need to be improved. As of now they are very flexible in the initial building stage, but probably the least flexible builds to play in combat, which is why I have gotten away from building them recently.

[mining]

1) I beat Sebastian 3-0. ND for me means up to 400 HPs :p.

2) SD's can get nice melee numbers, and HiPS is awesome.

3) Clerics can get nice melee numbers too.

4) Shifters are THE least versatile toons. One day I might make a multi-form shifter, but that will be soley for its ability to not suck epically wherever it goes; i.e. DR an option, ranged powers an option, hitting an option, drider an option etc. Unfortunately, that builds melee presence would be limited to dragonshape, and it would do it far worse than a druid.

5) Banshee isn't the most awesome pure bard ever.

6) With party friendly hellball it would've been a non-event me vs Seb.

7) Toons are greater than the sum of their parts. I made this awesome on paper build, 70+ AB, 80+ AC, and then it turned out to have bad damage and bad saves when I did more calculations. Basically *anything* bait.

As to the timer, that defeats the point. A SD should be able to 'beat' a non-spotting AO dragon by, well, running like a chicken from it and hitting softer targets.

9) Mamba, your EDodge, blinding, 80AC, 60 AB , blahblahblah, is awful. I've never, ever seen a shifter kill any toon with powers in pvp. (excepting once or twice when MoMF hit a pm for 200 damage on a fire stream crit).

10) DwD is arguably the best tank on the server. Maybe you haven't figured it out, but a cleric can actually do a lot more than randomly nuke stuff and spam mass heals in PVP.

11) There are amazing melee builds for every unique prc except for Assasain. IMO SL does get the least potent unique prc. tbh I'm yet to look at making a DwD, but you can make an amazing melee RDD non dragon, amazing melee PM, Shifters are amazing, CoT is amazing, and PDK is a better support than melee class.

12) Clearly you've never seen a smart sneaker. I can see Mc. Ninja with Gold, but unless he wanted a straight up fight, I'd never kill him. Ever.

13) Mages are damage dealing gods. Also, I think you miss the amazing battlefield control exercisable by most mages.

14) A top tier melee toon that gets awesome stats, good saves is makable in most factions. Think outside the square.
TC/NC get shifter and CoT, AO/RK get RDD builds and a couple of non unique prc but still very nice (80+ AC, 70+ AB, and some nasty HiPS 60+ AB, 80+ AC toons) SL/MA is a little more limited, but PM is still brutal, as are some of the builds SL can throw together.

15) 3 NC/TC players are not a bunker buster against 5 PWnD people.
Numbers still matter.
IMO, a build is overpowered when it defeats far greater numbers.
Basically, if I could bring 3 CoT / Shifter / your favourite NC/TC is uber and needs nerfs build to AO, and take relics against 5 RK/AO toons *reliably*, THEN a toon
would be overpowered compared to its foes.

16) The abuse I got from posting that build has left scars. I probably won't do it again.

[Tsavong]

5) Banshee isn't the most awesome pure bard ever.

I hate you!

But its true.

[burrahobbit]

If TC wants a melee'r make a fighter or a barb like the rest of us (except NC and their triple play of melee PRCs of whirling evil destruction). Your shifters should be flexible, not comparable.

The fact that you believe that fighters and barbs are your only melee option is your problem. The server is adapting and your in danger of going the way of the dodo not because you have no options, but because you aren't keeping up with the learning curve. Go back to the drawing board and i'm sure you will come up with some viable options. Saying that fighters and barbs are your only option is silly and only says to me that your being lazy.

NC probably does have the best melee prc's. So what, we don't have wizzies or sorces and i assume that's the reason. Tc doesn't have wizzies or sorces. That's probably why they got thrown a bone on the melee end also. AO/RK have great melee prc's, AO being superior in my opinion. Unfortunately, the AO boys/girls keep getting caught up in gimmick toons like a 30 RDD, which is still ridiculously powerful. Apparently they are not able to look at what an uber prc RDD is. Its like getting 12 epic feats and fire immune for free but i guess since they dont have jobs in AO they might as will throw in the towel right?

Its my impression that your looking at your builds that you designed and used 3 years ago and when they come up lacking you cry foul. Come up with something new. If your having trouble coming up with new ideas, you should have recruited shamed and mining b4 we did Now its too late. We keep their brains locked away in a high security vault in the sewers of daeron.

[Tru3Fals3]

heres my argument for melee toons being overpowered.....

chucky hits 82ab (and can be made in EVERY faction with minor differences), not on this own though, thats with a bard, this is prob the highest ab on the server (melee wise, highest AA ab is something like 90ish), not sure, some can match it, maybe someone has better, not sure there, think the highest melee ab possible is 84-85 iirc.

now, im making a shifter that can hit 97ac and has epic dodge (this is my first shifter so maybe with a different form i can do better), so basically chucky needs to roll a 20 on his 2nd attack to hit it, as far as im concerned if the highest ab toon on the server (again, just an example i have no idea if he is or not) needs a 20 to hit something then its overpowered ac wise, pms were nerfed for similar reasons as were rdd dragons and mages.

as comparison, rdd dragons max ac is 88, druid dragon max ac is 88, chuckys max ac is 85, i have no idea what max pm ac is anymore (prob in the high 80s after nerfs), havent really done the numbers on something like a sorc/monk/pally but i believe thats maxed out in the 80s too, these numbers are accounting for improved expertise, except the sorc on which its effectively useless.

shamed constantly complains about mage/monks getting shield ac, then makes a kobold scyther that gets shield ac/dr. scythers shouldnt get shield ac or dr either, thats ridiculous.

on a side note- i think sl has the weakest prestige class of all of them in assassins, they can make some pretty good combos with the options available to them but the prestige is by far the weakest, 2nd prob being dwarven defenders (dont quote me as saying they need to improve dwds either, because that isnt what im saying).

and mining, your talking bout dwds being the best tanks on the server when youve never looked at them before?? no dwd can tank better then a decent golem thats immune to sneak, stun, crits, crazy dr, has 30+ regen every round, great ac and a bunch of other tricks up its sleeve, they also have ab and do dmg (pierce/slash weapon = 3 dmg types), and ive built and looked at all kinds of dwds, hell i even have one thats immune to sneak, stun, crits etc but it would still be inferior to a properly built demonflesh golem.

thats my two cents.

by the way, i have no sympathy for anyone who gets their toons nerfed, of 21 40s, 16 of mine were nerfed (i know theres lots of people here who can say the same and prob have even worse ratios), get used to it, balance shifts constantly, it takes people pushing classes to there limits to show what is and isnt overpowered.

make something badass, expect it to change.

[Rufio]

Illithids have the highest possible AC for shifters. I know exactly what your build is true, gith 5 druid, 20 shifter, 13 rogue, that is only 38 levels, but the last 2 levels are just skill dumps. You are getting 97 AC only with a pure bard song and improved expertise, otherwise you have 83 AC, and by the way you will never be able to get more ac out of any other shifter besides an illithid monk shifter, but that doesn't get epic dodge.

You haven't mentioned your AB when you have 97 ac, it is only 56 with a pure bard song and ava in improved expertise, assuming you are using a +8 weapon. without a bard and cleric you get 83 ac and 59 ab, or 93 ac and 49 ab with IE. People may have to roll 20s to hit you while you are in IE mode, but you are going to have to roll 20s to hit other people.

If you really want to see an AC tank, there is a build in TSS that should be nearing or at 40 right now with 102 AC and epic dodge with a pure bard and improved expertise, and it isn't a shifter build. Like I said, you have the highest AC shifter possible without dropping epic dodge. (ok, there is one way to do an illithid rogue with 2 more ac, but it is considerably more difficult to pull off, and it would get destroyed by a dispel, so it isn't really worth it anyway.)

Edit 1:

I've always believed that if anything should be nerfed it is the githzerai dodge bonus. You would see nearly every AC tank on the server, including all the shifter tanks, drop a peg if the gith token was nerfed. No other race can even compare to a gith for dexer builds in the ac department.

Edit 2:

Oh, might as well squash some false rumors. It is impossible to get 3 damage types on a construct. You can get 2 damage types with a skara sickle, but only the extra piercing damage transfers, not the base slashing damage. If you have a spider fang, you sacrifice 3 ab to do this.

[Shamedmonkey]

And we've only discussed melee so far... ab + ac. I have yet to get to the cleric vs mage thing. Although it was mentioned at one point about domains and how that changes flavor. Thats a load of bullfarb. 80% of clerics are probably trick/travel. I would bet that 15% probably have trick OR travel + war.

i have 3 clerics with Animal/Strength domains lol
Best cleric Domain : MAGIC all the way
Unless your Shamed then you have to take Healing for sure......

I love clerics

I got a hillarious one coming up out of SL. Prepare to rip out your hair lol

Healing domain is the only option.

[cRaZy8or5e]

Every shifted form has an inherent weakness. Learning how to exploit that is the opponent's problem. Shifting in combat, usually =death, though not always.

Fighting new builds can be fun, and personally I fully enjoy trial and error. But it takes being able to disassociate your ego.

Balance is an ever changing issue on this server. Expect changes to upset whatever ideas we have about balance frequently.

The epic greater wildshapes and epic humanoid shapes can be a little ridiculous. *Puts on benedict arnold hat* Considering that you get epic kobold for only investing 17 shifter levels and 5 druid levels, that allows for a some interesting multiclassing, rogue, fighter, ranger, and clerics to date. On top of that form you get an ability that allows you to max strength AB (39 +6 blood frenzy +5 str crafted bracers = 50) and still take a ton of dexterity or constitution is just over the top imo. IF you had to take a feat to get it, OR could only get these epic forms with shifter/druid only, THEN it would make more sense. One could argue that for an equal investment of 6 fighter levels and 16 weaponmaster levels, you get +3 AB an extra crit multiplier, and +2 to crit range for two different weapons. So maybe it isn't that big of a deal that they get a ton of strength to double up their dex. I still think so, again because of the multiclass options available.

However, having said that, and thinking about how I'd try and fight a kobold, I'm not so sure that they are that overpowered. Kobolds have several glaring inherent weaknesses, some discussed some not.

And in the end, TC/NC don't get mages, and any mage worth its salt will kill a kobold or any other epic humanoid shapes/wildshapes. The epic feated shapes (outsider, dragon, construct, etc) should be imo difficult to beat, but you can't multiclass to take them (which is balancing in and of itself). For TC, druids keep getting no caster love, creeping doom=nerfed, vine mine (arguably one of their most powerful spells) =nerfed, some other spells got a little love, but those that allow for helping a caster maintain that all important distance between them and a big hitter are gettin extremely limited. SoV ftw is one of the few tools left in the druid toolbox, among other spells, spike growth is another good one. TC is being forced more and more to rely on their melee presence and some of their best melee builds are shifters. A mage is an answer tothe shifter problem and an easy answer. A dex pure bard with 75+ AC could kill a kobod as well, prior to the damage nerf, but idk how that would play out since the nerf to pure bard damage. I speculate to think that a bard would still win. Painfinder used to be able to do the job by blinding with WoF enabling him to hit the flatfooted kobold, and healing his way outta trouble against Sebastian but that's been changed. A Magic/Water domain cleric would kill them without a problem, more easily even than a mage, purely because a cleric can heal its way out of trouble, and ice storm (though difficult to use) is a little overpowered (though I have no idea what would be the best way to fix it, its kind of neat the way it is lol).

SL assassins are the weakest PRC's and the most difficult to play.

DwD easily the 2nd weakest PRC.

However, both factions have a plethora of build options available to them, and one gets every non-faction specific class available to them. I think that is where the balance is supposed to come in, though that's being debated hehehe.

I'd hesitate to say what is the most powerful PRC after that, Shifter has a plethora of options, many still unexplored, the capabilities of PDK are pretty disgusting, for sheer versatility CoT (albeit shortlived) is amazing, PM's are still tough as nails, and for extra AC and strength, you can't beat an RDD.

[rocketkai]

Rufio, ya forgot to mention the miserable damage that build has... If I would to build 5dru/20shifter/13rog+2lvls of whatever class toon, I would definately focus on the tiger rather than illithid

[mining]

Crazy, just by the way,

CoTs are awesome in that everything is good. Nothing sucks. But, like crazy didn't say, that lasts for 8 minutes tops. Now, I don't know about you, but its not so hard to avoid someone for 8 minutes, or kill them and trail them when they try to rest. RDDs are definitely as good as shifters, they can get 70+ AB, 80+ AC, and have improved expertise. Some HS builds using rogue can do much the same, with EDodgy 70+AB, 80+ AC.

Also, highest AB is:

12 full bab 28 wm.
preferably 6 pally, 6 fighter, 28 wm.

Using Hogre race, focuses in scyrtghe or GS.

30 BAB + (24 base + 10 levels + 8 great STR + 4 book + 12 magic = 58-10/2) = 24 str + 7WM + 4 feats
=65 AB
+8 weapon + 4 song + 3 AVA + 3 divine favour +1 haste + 1 from ?. IIRC there is a way to cap it.
=84 AB.

With improved disarm against an Illithid, that may or may not rise to 88, I forget.

Also, I suspect it'd be druid 6, shifter 20, rogue 14. Despite inefficiencies with no. of rogue levels, it opens up a tumble dump :p.