"Pure" bardsong

[VagaStorm]

The only problem I have with the current bard is that 30 bard dosent give the same song as 30 bard with something else.

[Cyrian]

since pure bards don't get much (besides song obv), it would be nice to see something done to encourage multiclassing with them.

[mining]

The only problem I have with the current bard is that 30 bard dosent give the same song as 30 bard with something else.

YES.

Oh, and I swear to god I will hunt down the next person who mentions 50 DC fear aura. It isn't easy to get.

Using +2 books; and getting Blinding Speed Armor Skin Epic Prowess (so minimal spot),
We can get DC 48. You can get DC 50 with 2 +4s while getting blinding, AS, EP. Duration is 25 seconds, and guess what. You still get bashed.

[Nyeleni]

Heh, that is true. Zersei isn't a big threat by far. Besides the fear effect doesn't last for long... Although PDK are scary, but very complicated to play too. Do they reach DC 50 fear aura though? I doubt it.

Hey, Mining, does this mean, you will hunt me down now?



Don't lvl30 bards multiclassing already get whatever they choose to multiclass into? That is their bonus. Then again, maybe it's not enough to solo epic stuff.

[Rufio]

Oh, and I swear to god I will hunt down the next person who mentions 50 DC fear aura. It isn't easy to get.

QFT. You'd need what, like 38 base wisdom for that.

[mining]

Heh, that is true. Zersei isn't a big threat by far. Besides the fear effect doesn't last for long... Although PDK are scary, but very complicated to play too. Do they reach DC 50 fear aura though? I doubt it.

Hey, Mining, does this mean, you will hunt me down now?



Don't lvl30 bards multiclassing already get whatever they choose to multiclass into? That is their bonus. Then again, maybe it's not enough to solo epic stuff.

You know what I mean. And yeah, 38 base wisdom.

[Chernobyl_Glow]

i agree with rufio's disappointment that the pure bard bonuses make a bunch of very generic pure bard builds. bard creativity if very minimal. however, considering the idea to cap bard song at 30 or even 35 then there will never, ever ever be another pure bard built. there has to be some payoff for taking 40 bard levels. building pure, as a bard, leaves some huge weaknesses and hence the dedication to stay pure is a huge sacrifice. that should have a huge pay off.

formerly the 6ab 6ac version was slightly too powerful. i think the tone down to 5 ab 5 ac was one of your finest "tweaks" to date. but further would be too much and i think ever pure bard out there would regret having stayed pure. damage could be toned down but that damage is only applied to the bard itself and are we really worried about the bards actually doing the killing? mine seldom does. all i do is sing and curse then die.

curse song has no bonus for being pure if i recall, hence the ab/ac swing for a pure bard is 9. a 30 bard currently creates a swing of 6. i think that is about right.

the only reason we build "pure" bards is for that buff. if i want a bard that is self sufficient and actually a better character, then i mix it with something, blackguard, sd, pdk, rog. any of these create a much better character.

- glow -

[Shamedmonkey]

i agree with rufio's disappointment that the pure bard bonuses make a bunch of very generic pure bard builds. bard creativity if very minimal. however, considering the idea to cap bard song at 30 or even 35 then there will never, ever ever be another pure bard built. there has to be some payoff for taking 40 bard levels. building pure, as a bard, leaves some huge weaknesses and hence the dedication to stay pure is a huge sacrifice. that should have a huge pay off.

formerly the 6ab 6ac version was slightly too powerful. i think the tone down to 5 ab 5 ac was one of your finest "tweaks" to date. but further would be too much and i think ever pure bard out there would regret having stayed pure. damage could be toned down but that damage is only applied to the bard itself and are we really worried about the bards actually doing the killing? mine seldom does. all i do is sing and curse then die.

curse song has no bonus for being pure if i recall, hence the ab/ac swing for a pure bard is 9. a 30 bard currently creates a swing of 6. i think that is about right.

the only reason we build "pure" bards is for that buff. if i want a bard that is self sufficient and actually a better character, then i mix it with something, blackguard, sd, pdk, rog. any of these create a much better character.

- glow -

Pre wipe a level 40 bard's Curse Song was better than a level 30 bard, who just got a maxed bard buff song.

[Chernobyl_Glow]

i never built a bard pre-wipe. I know your multiclass 30 bard was terrific. i was only saying that there is a table in the change log that states a 40 bard gets song and curse of +/- 4 to AB and AC. A later entry states that Pure bards get a +1 to AB and AC on their song. It doesn't apply to the curse. That entry used to give a pure bonus of +1 at 16 and +2 at 32. i.e. this has been nerfed already quite silently.

It is kind of funny that the CL entry states, "Continuing on my reasons for not multiclassing your bard into fighter/BG/WM/PM/CoT/etc... theme... here's a bonus to pure bards."

- Glow -

[Bargeld]

I was never a bard afficianado myself, but I've made a pure just to see and understand them for myself. Sure, I realized their benefit in that any song + curse in a battle was a twofold bonus (+4ab ac/+8 skill song & -4ab ac/-8 skill curse ultimately meant +8 ab ac and +16 skill). To me that is massive. No saves for the ability. Removing the effect was clouded in mystery; not that it was really so difficult to do, but it wasn't exactly common knowledge for most. Previous to the recent bard vs bard change, it was a race to the curse button.

You'll notice that I used the 4/8 numbers for example. Up until a few days ago, I thought that was the max for a pure bard; I was mistaken, in that it was actually 5/10. I thought that the big deal about being a pure bard was for maxing the sonic damage for self only. +15 sonic to self was massive also. I thought that, of the 4/8 portion, the 8 was the max sonic damage that was conferred to your team. In my uneducated dilusions, I thought that this was all pretty fair:

4/8 max song & curse (based on perform skill)
15 sonic damage self (again based on perform skill)
8 team sonic damage (based on perform)
I did think the bard vs bard change was a good one, so keep that in there.
I also think that the +4 counting toward ab cap was a good thing too.
As far as the pure benefit... At this point, if you have sacrificed in chr/perform both in the build and in gear in order to reach all of the above maxes, you didn't have much room for any other specializations or gear. Multiclassing a 30 bard seemed almost pointless because the pure benefit outweighed the crappy little bits of multiclassing with something else for 10 lvls.

That's how I think it should be.

[Lokey]

Plenty of fine arguments for keeping the status quo or mostly the same with minor tweaks (everybody has them and it's not pure bards we see soloing abyss, etc...). Maybe the 80 skill breakpoint is too low for most extra damage since I get 82 on hogre with 16 base charisma though I did take the epic skill feat (molech hide + siren robe + gila bracers, the last two which can be swapped after song, you have plenty for max curse). That guy is str and is pretty solid on all fronts except the crippling low ac score. Also pretty sure Linux would want you to have to take skill focus and artist to get the best bonus

I guess I should verify the song/curse tables one of these days too.

Ideally it would be an AoE and you could only do one or the other (effects do last a little while after bard stops performing) and you'd be limited in what you could do while performing (non-silenced spellcasting or non-stilled spellcasting say) but that kind of thing is always major headaches to shake all the bugs out of and tough to make obvious what's happening and would probably want for some dueling auras resolution that would be painful to come up with.

PS: one of the few things I don't think is better in 3.5 than 3.0 is bardsong. Too much to keep track of.

[mining]

Dammit Lokey, that bard CAN have an acceptable AC if you do it right.
Also, I didn't hear you mention critting for 400.

[cRaZy8or5e]

Pure bards are too powerful. Generally they survive better than any other melee class out there (if built correctly) and are more versatile than any melee class as well. ADD to that fact that they boost a party better than any build out there, and can scroll buff as well as any cleric. Essentially my problem is that bards have a lot that they already bring to the table, and that the pure sonic damage should be tamed (or even done away with).

I think a 35 bard should get a little bit better song. The difference in song from 28-35 is marginal at best.

As far as the song goes, a lvl 28 or 30 song is still pretty powerful. You have a buff that can last for a really long time and there is no way to remove it. A cleric's best buffs(uef and AVA) are removed by one spell that can be scrolled and cast by a rogue. In light of that, I think bard song is pretty good the way it is. I think people just haven't made the paradigm shift from pre-wipe 30 lvl bard multiclass builds to what is available today, still bemoaning what "they used to be able to do" instead of what they can do now.

[frogofpeace]

the sonic damage is too high.

[Kromix]

I DONT KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY SONIC DAMAGE!!!!