"Pure" bardsong

[Lokey]

When I made it, didn't know it bypassed all immunities/resists (you don't see sonic resist/immune that much). Still need to make a successful attack to see it, but do like there to be a number of options to mitigate the all-terrible abilities others have.

Of course, running around at level 40 with 350 hitpoints still means you deserve to die, just because your bard has x limitation or weakness doesn't mean all bards do

[Rufio]

The problem with I have with bards is that there is essentially 1 bard build, a pure bard dexer, and a pure bard bard song is way more powerful than any other buff out there, especially when you consider curse song. Multiclass bards are pretty meh. it takes a lot of dedication to the bard class for a substantially weaker bard song.

Pure bards get +5 ab +5 ac, 15 sonic damage, but cross-class at all and the best you can do is +3 ab +3 ac and no sonic damage. You also have to consider that a bard song is twice as powerful as the stats may indicate because of curse song. Having a pure bard essentially gives everyone 10 ab and 10 ac over the enemy if they don't have a bard.

I wouldn't mind seeing bard song having the same progression as it has now, but capping it at level 30 to open up the class a little more and tame bard song a bit. Pure bards can keep their bonus sonic damage or something.

[mining]

The problem with I have with bards is that there is essentially 1 bard build, a pure bard dexer. Multiclass bards are pretty meh. it takes a lot of dedication to the bard class for a substantially weaker bard song. Pure bards get +5 ab +5 ac, 15 sonic damage, but cross-class at all and the best you can do is +3 ab +3 ac and no sonic damage. I wouldn't mind seeing the bard song going back to capping at level 30 to open up the class a little more. Pure bards can keep their bonus sonic damage or something.

Well, if you stack on STR damage too, you can get an almighty basher. Just ask Lokey.

[Tsavong]

A Bard is quite powerful right now But I don't think there too good, may be the sonic damage they get to hit could be lowered a little. But the whole point of a pure bard is its song you invest 40 levels into something to get its songs they should have a big impact on the battle. Just like a well played high level cleric or a pure fighter with a well timed use of its token will have a big impact on a battle.

Also its possible become immune to curse song just by using a level 2 spell.

I wouldn't mind seeing bard song having the same progression as it has now, but capping it at level 30 to open up the class a little more and tame bard song a bit. Pure bards can keep their bonus sonic damage or something.

It was like that be for the wipe I had a Bard Blackguard Rogue that was probably more powerful than my pure bard is now which I think was wrong bard song as it is such a powerful ability it should go all the way to 40 so you can't combine it with other nice to have things like evasion or 4 base attacks a round.

[OpalimTeGolim]

Don't fix what is not broken.
Every faction has bards, so everyone can build them. That is balanced. If both parties have bards, bards approximately cancel each other. That is balanced. Not broken. If your raiding party does not have a bard, you should be disadvantaged, and yes you should loose if everything else is approximately equal!

Nerfing bards would only motivate people to build less diverse parties. It already happened when EMA was nerfed and we lost caster mages. I mean, why build a toon that has mediocre buffs and serious flaws (no uncanny dodge, low hp, somewhat dmg output compared to other melee builds) if you can instead build (also pure) barbarian or fighter killing machine. Or dragons with DC 50 fear aura.

Also, bard song has already been nerfed, right? If I recall correctly, curse lowers skills by 5 now, not by 8 (correct me if I'm wrong, I can't check now).

I don't like Rufio's proposal because that would create some crazy combos that could sing well while at the same time have uncanny dodge, evasion, monk armor, hips and who knows what else. Long term it would lead in more nerfs, and I fear it would mess up bards even more.

I think bards are good as they are now, but since the last option in poll describes my feelings better, I did not choose "about right power level".

[Kromix]

Make Level cap of 10 everyone uses vanilla gear and no multiclassing. no PRC.

[Nyeleni]

Don't fix what is not broken.
Every faction has bards, so everyone can build them. That is balanced. If both parties have bards, bards approximately cancel each other. That is balanced. Not broken. If your raiding party does not have a bard, you should be disadvantaged, and yes you should loose if everything else is approximately equal!

Nerfing bards would only motivate people to build less diverse parties. It already happened when EMA was nerfed and we lost caster mages. I mean, why build a toon that has mediocre buffs and serious flaws (no uncanny dodge, low hp, somewhat dmg output compared to other melee builds) if you can instead build (also pure) barbarian or fighter killing machine. Or dragons with DC 50 fear aura.

Also, bard song has already been nerfed, right? If I recall correctly, curse lowers skills by 5 now, not by 8 (correct me if I'm wrong, I can't check now).

I don't like Rufio's proposal because that would create some crazy combos that could sing well while at the same time have uncanny dodge, evasion, monk armor, hips and who knows what else. Long term it would lead in more nerfs, and I fear it would mess up bards even more.

I think bards are good as they are now, but since the last option in poll describes my feelings better, I did not choose "about right power level".

Comparing oranges to apples is always a bad habit, but so be it. It might be that mages aren't played by some players anymore, but there are still enough running around.
Oh and pls start a new thread if you want to discuss mages .

Anyways: bards shouldn't bypass the sonic protection. But that's the only thing I would change, therefore I clicked on about right. They are slightly too good imo.

[Tsavong]

Anyways: bards shouldn't bypass the sonic protection. But that's the only thing I would change, therefore I clicked on about right. They are slightly too good imo.

Ye I think the sonic damage bards get to damage when they hit something probably is a bit much but other than that I think the song is fine, also curse is easy to get rid of if you are prepared. Now bards can be cursed I don't see a problem.

[OpalimTeGolim]

This thread is about bards. I used mages as an example what happens when you nerf a class. I'm glad we generally agree about bards.

This thread is about bards.

[Shamedmonkey]

Voted for I hate you.

I agree that pre wipe bard song was too powerful, but I always felt that it shouldn't have been taken away from 30 bard builds. Curse song was the buff you got for going pure bard pre wipe, and it worked out fine (or so I'd like to believe). Think about how you're investing 30 levels into a single class, you should be able to get a pretty damn decent song then. As it stands now, Rufio is correct in that current bard song and sonic damage bonuses make it so that Pure Bard Dexer is pretty much the only option out there. I always thought NS4 was about creativity in builds, buffs like that completely stifle it.

[Tsavong]

30 bard gets a +3 AB and AC song which has the same effect to AB as clerics AVA so I should think that is a pretty damn decent song. You should be able make a 30 bard/X/X that is a decent build.

As for stifling creativity when I go raiding it seems to me the most used build to defend is a pure fighter with some pure barbarian for variety I don't think Bards are stifling creativity.

[Rufio]

I was thinking more along the lines of capping bard song right at its current level 30 benefits. That shouldn't cause and "crazy combos that would need more nerfs" because it would be no different than doing a 30 bard/5 x/5 x build right now, it really just nerfs pure bards a bit.

[Rufio]

30 bard gets a +3 AB and AC song which has the same effect to AB as clerics AVA so I should think that is a pretty damn decent song. You should be able make a 30 bard/X/X that is a decent build.

As for stifling creativity when I go raiding it seems to me the most used build to defend is a pure fighter with some pure barbarian for variety I don't think Bards are stifling creativity.

I also think pure fighters and pure barbarians are stifling creativity . If this was my server the pure fighter/barbarian benefits would be nerfed for sure and the "pure" restrictions for the abilities would be lifted.

[Cyrian]

I also think pure fighters and pure barbarians are stifling creativity . If this was my server the pure fighter/barbarian benefits would be nerfed for sure and the "pure" restrictions for the abilities would be lifted.

this is exactly what i thought about fighters when i first rolled here. the pure restrictions are retarded - anyone who invests 25+ levels in the class should reap some benefit other than vanilla fighter.

i feel similarly about multiclass bards.

[Tsavong]

Multi class Bards get the same as a pure bard a Song and they can take curse song. Song should go up to 40 if you want to multi class your bard to make it better as a whole you should have to give up some song.