Epic Mage Armor nerf........

[Kromix]

This seriously sickens me. So many hours/days put into toons that can handle the Epic Planes and you go and Nerf the hell out of them.. What a waste of friggen time. I would like you to find one player that is alright with this nerf that isnt strictly NC obviously. Do I get to relevel my toons now or what!!! USELESS !!!
Were players complaining about it? I know you guys want our toons to suck but come'on.........................
Considering the average ab of most pvp'rs is in the 63-73 range I just don't see how this is balanced.......
You fixed it once and it was great! We could build mages and hybrids that could tackle the ridiculas hard planes and be viable in pvp. And then took it away..... *rage* You mind aswell just switch it back to bioware EMA and lose another -1ac.........

Quit whining

[Kromix]

I

f you're still killing zons at level 36 with a mage you either suck, or don't know how to play a mage (which equates to still sucking.)

HMMMMMM, Let me go back a time and recall a few things. You are talking trash, right? to me? Hmm, I remember a fon toon who was a pure bard who conquer posi plane by himself. He used his jobs(from nc) and being a pure bard and he lvled there, over and over. Pure druid dragons can not lvl in a lower plane as shadow plane? Because druid dragons are too powerful? wow, someone needs a lesson and explain to Lokey who is in charge.


BTW, my mages never sukked brought everyone who tried to raid my sanction died. Ask around, ask the head dm he knows how I am, pked his [censored] many a times, just ask mouth, ask around.

Lol the memories

[Alkapwn]

This seriously sickens me. So many hours/days put into toons that can handle the Epic Planes and you go and Nerf the hell out of them.. What a waste of friggen time. I would like you to find one player that is alright with this nerf that isnt strictly NC obviously. Do I get to relevel my toons now or what!!! USELESS !!!
Were players complaining about it? I know you guys want our toons to suck but come'on.........................
Considering the average ab of most pvp'rs is in the 63-73 range I just don't see how this is balanced.......
You fixed it once and it was great! We could build mages and hybrids that could tackle the ridiculas hard planes and be viable in pvp. And then took it away..... *rage* You mind aswell just switch it back to bioware EMA and lose another -1ac.........

Quit whining

Bite me
Note : they did change it back to bioware EMA hehe. Alot better then +6 Shield which they had it at for awhile.I rarely even bother complaining but that one really bothered me. Sometimes ya just got to rant hehe

[Ryddwillow]

This seriously sickens me. So many hours/days put into toons that can handle the Epic Planes and you go and Nerf the hell out of them.. What a waste of friggen time. I would like you to find one player that is alright with this nerf that isnt strictly NC obviously. Do I get to relevel my toons now or what!!! USELESS !!!
Were players complaining about it? I know you guys want our toons to suck but come'on.........................
Considering the average ab of most pvp'rs is in the 63-73 range I just don't see how this is balanced.......
You fixed it once and it was great! We could build mages and hybrids that could tackle the ridiculas hard planes and be viable in pvp. And then took it away..... *rage* You mind aswell just switch it back to bioware EMA and lose another -1ac.........

Quit whining

Kromix who is that? lol. Whine, sure we ALL have rights to whine here and I have seen many of my toons get nerfed cause I kick the crap out of sore losers. If you have something worthwhile to add to the huddle then by all means add it. Otherwise go sit on the porch like always.

[Rogue2x]

I actually have to agree with Kapwn......ugh, that just hurt my brain to admit

But not for the same reason.

As someone who LOVES mages; and I play my mages a LOT, and I play them well, I think I can speak with a little respect on this issue.

Mages on their own don't have any way to protect themselves from melee attacks. Yes, they can try and slow down a toon coming straight for them, but what is a mage supposed to do against a +70ab that bards and CoTs and fighters and barbs are running around with?

I had a mage with 78ac with EMA the way it was. Even at 78ac, I don't think you'll find ANYONE who'd say that toon was invincible. And that toon has been around awhile.

What a higher AC allows a caster to do, is actually cast a few spells before you have to run around like a lunatic avoiding melee opponents.

Now with the nerf, all a caster can do is try a Bigby (which isn't exactly reliable either), the Slow spell, or Neg Burst to try and slow them down, so that I can run and run and run, cast a spell, then run away to avoid being hit, and run and run, then cast a spell, and run and run.

The only hope a caster now has in PvP is Bigby. How is it good for the server that every mage now has to be a bigby-mage? Even better, since mages now can't get any AC, they're all bigby-bait, and mage-mage fights just come down to who lands the first Bigby. (Excepting of course Cheeze-Wiz, who has DC 75 spells)

This nerf just dumbs down the server, providing more limits to building, and discouraging people from building mages. And that's not just opinion; look at how PvP has been going since the nerf, there are really no more mages running around. They simply can't survive long enough to do anything, which equals "no fun" (and thusly no one building and playing them).

So, in the name of Fun and Diversity for the server, I honestly believe we need to think of a better alternative, or maybe a compromise, like a +10 shield bonus instead of the +12 shield or +5 dodge, something right in the middle of where it used to be (and where everyone was actually happy with it except for Shamed and the rest of the NC troupe that calls for nerfs of anything that can be used against them), a perfect compromise.

I do think that's the other issue though, and this is the part I really do agree with Kpwn on. I'm really really hard-pressed to find ANYONE who really thought a +12 Shield EMA was broken. Again, excepting the NC troupe that I believe is actually calling for a nerf of Bigby right now lol, as if anyone actually believes THAT one is broken too. (again, proving that they want anything nerfed that can be used against them).

This is a server for the players, I think if a change was made that the players as a majority are really opposed to, I think it's a topic that should be revisited for the sake of fun, which is what the game is about.

I said it the other day and I'll say it again: the only problem the +12 EMA caused was that it helped kill whiners from NC/TC. I think it means something really significant that both AO/RK and SL/MA (who fight against each other's EMA toons) unanimously agree on this issue; EMA was not broken, it was fun, and a great majority of the actual players who are effected by this, are opposed.

Besides, Balance-wise, NC is the only faction who has access to the CoT, the class that can attain the highest bab of any build; so really, what is the issue? They're the ones who should have the LEAST trouble with EMA......

[Rufio]

Yeah, you are exactly right, anything that NC/TC can't use should be nerfed! In fact, EMA should actually decrease your ac and bigsby spells should always target the caster. NEB is annoying too, lets put a saving throw on that, and maybe a saving throw on issacs while we are at it. That ought to balance things a bit better.

(Seriously though, CoT's don't get the highest possible ab. +20 magical ab cap means a properly buffed pure fighter or weapon master gets higher. My ranger can even get higher thanks to bane.)

[Tsavong]

As someone who LOVES mages; and I play my mages a LOT, and I play them well, I think I can speak with a little respect on this issue.

As am I, in case someone reading this dose not know I play that annoying Sorcerer Warlock {GODS}.

Mages on their own don't have any way to protect themselves from melee attacks. Yes, they can try and slow down a toon coming straight for them, but what is a mage supposed to do against a +70ab that bards and CoTs and fighters and barbs are running around with?

Your right there a mage dose not have much protraction form melee and yes when a big nasty fighter with a scythe is running at my sorc I try and avoid it and melee with it. You want to use something to keep the melee builds at arms length, well many arms away from you to be honest, Bigby has its place yes so dose the effects of neb or grease or some guy on your side to go melee with them is helpful too.

Mage-mage fights, unless a mage is pure and has half discipline and low enough AC, should not come down to the first bigby.

I had a mage with 78ac with EMA the way it was. Even at 78ac, I don't think you'll find ANYONE who'd say that toon was invincible. And that toon has been around awhile.

Oh yes it was a hard nut to crack that toon you speak of. I must also say that Warlock always had less ac than that and now he only hits the high 60s with dodge ac caped out and as I expect the people who I have been fighting the last two days will say he still works.

I do think that's the other issue though, and this is the part I really do agree with Kpwn on. I'm really really hard-pressed to find ANYONE who really thought a +12 Shield EMA was broken. Again, excepting the NC troupe that I believe is actually calling for a nerf of Bigby right now lol, as if anyone actually believes THAT one is broken too. (again, proving that they want anything nerfed that can be used against them).

Broken may be the wrong word but I did see a good number of melee builds using EMA to combine shield AC with a two handed weapon and I did think that was a bit broken. Before the 12 shield AC to EMA change went in EMA was +5 to all ac types which worked out as you got 5 dodge ac as you could get the 5 for the other AC types form items any way. I remember thinking when the 12 shield AC change went in that it was well quite a big change and I did not expect it to last. And now we are back to were we started with EMA giving 5 AC in dodge which I think is right as I do not think a build with out a shield on its arm should be getting shield AC.

NC also dose not need any help to kill mages there melee builds are fast and most of them carry a ranged weapon too which is a good way to make a mage dead. Also a well played caster cleric (like the FoN I fort yesterday) should be able to kill a mage build so NC should not have problems with mages.

NEB is annoying too

Annoying but NC could make a cleric with it and be as annoying as the rest of us.

Regards
Warlock

[Nyeleni]

Bla bla bla SNIP
I said it the other day and I'll say it again: the only problem the +12 EMA caused was that it helped kill whiners from NC/TC. I think it means something really significant that both AO/RK and SL/MA (who fight against each other's EMA toons) unanimously agree on this issue; EMA was not broken, it was fun, and a great majority of the actual players who are effected by this, are opposed.

Besides, Balance-wise, NC is the only faction who has access to the CoT, the class that can attain the highest bab of any build; so really, what is the issue? They're the ones who should have the LEAST trouble with EMA......

There are so many wrong statements here, I don't even know where to begin with.

Of course AO/RK and SL/MA don't mind if you have the über EMA. You got other means to kill the mage than hitting it. Don't tell me it's alright if a mêlée class can't hit a caster with EMA? But that never was the point. In fact, I don't even remember somebody from NC/TC "whining" about EMA. Some of us even defended you ungrateful snots. I think the Devs, DMs tested it with their HOgres and thought it was a bit out of whack. Prolly Lokey; I usually blame him .
But I still remember PWnD's threads about nerfing an exisiting perk of an opposing faction like PM or Shifter, Eventually it got changed to the worse, although I dont blame you. Sometimes it's just too good to be true, and the higher powers change some features. Usually your elaborations were right, although very single minded, but then don't point the finger in our direction, if you get nerfed... It's part of the game. Embrace changes and adapt.

But back to topic: As Rufio already pointed out, CoT doesn't have the highest AB, it has maybe the highest average dmg output, as long as the divine feats are up, although a scyther and similar weapons will always outclass it in that too. The only real advantage of a CoT are the combination of high saves, acceptable AC, with excellent AB and dmg.

That's why I really would appreciate it, if you don't spread false rumours here, Rogue2x.

And yes I am condescending towards you and a bit annoyed. Especially if a veteran, who should know it better, starts accusing us NC/TC of nillywillies.

[Kromix]

QUIT YOUR WHINING ;D

[cRaZy8or5e]

Every mage doesn't have to be a bigsby mage. The skill to get grasping hand to work for any mage has nothing to do with the DC. Crushing hand, yes you better have some focuses if you want it to be effective in pvp, or to rely on it in pve (though you can still use it without focuses in pve, but watch your back with ranged attackers lol).

Mages should have to run around like lunatics unless they have people and/or summons to screen for them. Even a simple gate spell provides a nice road block. Pre-wipe epic warding made casting in the middle of a melee feasible for a very VERY short duration and made more sense than the almost worthless DR that it provides now. When EMA got set back to its original form, I do think that Warding should have been returned to its original ability as well. BUT I'm saying that without any consideration or knowledge of why it was nerfed in the first place. In my opinion, epic warding right now benefits spellsword types more than it does casters as they tend to have more hitpoints so the greater damage resistance over time is more beneficial. Though a high hitpoint caster with lots of tensor's (great caster heal spells) can still benefit from its unlimited duration.

I have a pure wizard that I've soloed to 36 so far, fully buffed to 32 AC. Been killing dwarves and goblins since lvl 30. I do use bigsby with large mobs, but I'm not dependent on it.

Mages shouldn't have a hard time with solo melee toons, I'm sorry that you are. I don't know why. They should have a hard time killing high SR monks, clerics with lots of heal spells, and ranged attackers. The change to AA's and the keen adding more crits to their ranged attacks was a great addition I think and equalized the amount of damage that mages and AA's can do to each other.

We have a thread on the FoN forums about how mages always seem to kill CoT's without any problems lol. The amount of damage that a mage can dish out (280 per round with maxxed IGMS) is superior to what most CoT's can do at range. Especially if said CoT panics due to being slowed or encumberd and focuses on trying to remove the effect rather than gun the offending mage down first. It comes down to a damage race and unless the CoT gets some lucky crits in there, he almost always loses. Especially if the target has more than 60 AC. Most CoT's aren't focused in ranged wpns. After being dispelled at best they are shooting at around 65 AB, and at worst 60 (depending on the build)

When every attack counts in that damage race, suddenly one or two missed attacks and you're losing in that race.

Your build was built around AC. If you don't have a high wisdom modifier to add to your AC, then you might look at using a small shield. You shouldn't have lost too much AC, 71 AC right? That should be plenty. You just can't cast in the face of a high AB hitter. And I still say that you shouldn't be able to, not without inhibiting said hitter in some magical way. If a melee focused toon can close with a mage, I think its only fairthat they get to play the proverbial “drunken frat boy” to the "ugly chick home alone" mage.

We're not whiners. We're just better with mages.
EDIT: Okay okay that was a little too much bravado. But Neil's casters and Richar Nixon (Truefalse?) seemed to own my CoT every time he shows his face to them. Ipomoea (sp) HNs (Cahaal) ruined my day a couple times this past weekend as well.

And yes, Ranger bane builds, and rogue wpnmasters actually achieve much higher AB's than CoT's, do the builds and figure the math.

[VagaStorm]

scyther and similar weapons will always outclass it in that too.

If your a wm, the white scythe dos not have the best avg dmg output in ns4

[mining]

CoT doesn't even have the highest damage output. Bards are seriously sickeningly high damage monsters.

The big advantage of a CoT, is that it doesn't suck at anything. Its saves- great. AB- nice. AC- pretty good. Damage- Nice. DR- Cool.

Also a well played caster cleric (like the FoN I fort yesterday) should be able to kill a mage build so NC should not have problems with mages.

I only won because I still had a chanter blade in my inventory, and I had DF/DP/AVA memmed. Even so every attack was missing except on a 20 :p.

[cRaZy8or5e]

btw, SL, AO, and RK still have access to 75-80 AC mages w/o havin to resort to EMA.

[frogofpeace]

CoT doesn't even have the highest damage output. Bards are seriously sickeningly high damage monsters.

Seriously.

[Rufio]

My only caster (kind of a weird caster, but caster none the less) has 73 ac and has no trouble standing and casting against all but the heaviest of hitters, granted he has 1000 hp, but the damage output is not even close to what a wizard can potentially do.

Always wanted a true caster myself, and have stated out a few different types of casters (sorcerers, wizards, druid casters) with 80+ AC. Unfortunately (or fortunately for everyone else?) I don't have the time grind levels very often.