Dragon Fear question

[Jacks Revenge]

I do feel that the question was a good one, but if you think about why the Dev's gave Dragonshape at 30 levels of RDD, because after 10 levels of RDD, there is no worthwhile point of going on to 11+, Its not like the PM summoner that gets the cool summon at 30, there is not gold at the end of the rainbow for 30RDD until Metis<I think> put it in the dragonshape, I think her intention was to encourage the THEN AO players to build a 30RDD not just 10 Levels, I do feel its kinda wrong for the Shifters to get a better DC on the fear aura, But on the other hand I can see what it does take to become a decent shifter dragon..there seems to be no happy medium, on side or the other is going to complain about something.

[Chernobyl_Glow]

ever wonder why there are no 25 rdd builds. <-- cause it would be dumb. 30 rdd dragon takes 20 lvls of a useless epic class for 1 thing: the dragon. don't be deceived that there is some other gain. they are really hard to build. there are zero reasons to take epic rdd levels other than 30 rdd dragon.

but that shouldn't matter. the changes a few weeks back were centered on the final result not the path to get there.we said rdd's are harder to build. you said "so. just cause they are harder to build doesn't mean they should be better." or a similar sentiment.

same logic should apply now. 35 dc fear is useless.

- glow -

[weasel423]

So, give RDD 35dc plus ½ their cha modifier. lets them get to 45 max but makes them take many points in cha to get there.

[Shamedmonkey]

ever wonder why there are no 25 rdd builds. <-- cause it would be dumb. 30 rdd dragon takes 20 lvls of a useless epic class for 1 thing: the dragon. don't be deceived that there is some other gain. they are really hard to build. there are zero reasons to take epic rdd levels other than 30 rdd dragon.

but that shouldn't matter. the changes a few weeks back were centered on the final result not the path to get there.we said rdd's are harder to build. you said "so. just cause they are harder to build doesn't mean they should be better." or a similar sentiment.

same logic should apply now. 35 dc fear is useless.

- glow -

You're an idiot if you think that the DC 35 fear is useless. With the amount of toons running around with about a will save of around 26, you neutralize them with a single thing. They're useless for like 4 rounds, running off into a corner, doing nothing and flatfooted for a large amount of time while you pick off the clerics of the party or whatever. There's nothing that gives immunity to fear other than being a kender or a paladin (might be some more things I forgot). The point still stands though. If they fail that save, they're completely useless until some cleric who happens to have remove fear slotted comes along or the fear runs out, which takes forever.

[Rainswept]

And please dont see the server in 'groups' changes like this depend on class balance etc it has nothing to do with who plays what.

That's demonstrably not true, my friend. The slammer was fine for years until more people actually started using it. How often it's an issue is directly proportional to how many people play it. A certain amount of that is simply unavoidable, it's exactly like the NBA having to change the rules when Wilt Chamberlain came along, I'm just saying that's what's happening.

It's also not true that the changes are all based on balance not in-game logic. Svirneblin were nerfed because it was decided they were an underground race, not because they were deemed overpowered. In fact it clearly created a slight disadvantage by leaving RK without a keen sense build that can't be blinded.

Glow makes excellent points. For the record, I don't have a dragon, have never had a dragon nor an RDD of any sort.

[Rainswept]

You're an idiot if you think that the DC 35 fear is useless. With the amount of toons running around with about a will save of around 26, you neutralize them with a single thing. They're useless for like 4 rounds, running off into a corner, doing nothing and flatfooted for a large amount of time while you pick off the clerics of the party or whatever. There's nothing that gives immunity to fear other than being a kender or a paladin (might be some more things I forgot). The point still stands though. If they fail that save, they're completely useless until some cleric who happens to have remove fear slotted comes along or the fear runs out, which takes forever.

So by that logic, what are your thoughts on the DC 50 fear?

[Shamedmonkey]

You're an idiot if you think that the DC 35 fear is useless. With the amount of toons running around with about a will save of around 26, you neutralize them with a single thing. They're useless for like 4 rounds, running off into a corner, doing nothing and flatfooted for a large amount of time while you pick off the clerics of the party or whatever. There's nothing that gives immunity to fear other than being a kender or a paladin (might be some more things I forgot). The point still stands though. If they fail that save, they're completely useless until some cleric who happens to have remove fear slotted comes along or the fear runs out, which takes forever.

So by that logic, what are your thoughts on the DC 50 fear?

My thoughts at that Shifters are incredibly weak compared a 30 RDD build. Should it be DC 50? Probably not, but Shifters are weak compared to an RDD. DC 45? Sure.

[Tsavong]

To be honest the RDD dragon fear was too good as it was for free. At 30 RDD lvls a RDD gets a dragon shape with about 1k hp (at least the ones I've seen in party) a lot of DR, the ability to breath fire and to just be a big target. It should not need (unless you build badly) a free fear aura to be good.

Oh and I dont think just having 30 lvls of RDD is work enough to get the fear aura. Druid shifter dragons need to be all druid/shifter with at least 10 shifter levels and invest in there wisdom to get 30 just to be able to take the epic feat needed to become a dragon. Then to get a DC of 50 they would need to put more into there wisdom may be even giving up blinding speed to do that.

RDD guilds get much more freedom with there abilities and a little more with the classes they take, they are different to druid/shifter dragons.

So by that logic, what are your thoughts on the DC 50 fear?

A will save vs a DC of 50 is a very powerful weapon but for a shifter dragon to get that high they need to put a lot into it. Same thing with a DC 50+ stunning fist I should think. A weapon with a DC of 50 should not be given to any class for free. The current DC of 35 is good as all you need to get it is 30 RDD levels.

[Bargeld]

Ever see an assassin with only 10 levels? Perma-UV woohoo! Assassin is a PRC that is not worth building with 25 levels or lower. At lvl 30 they get a 2nd second of etherealness and +1 to their DCs.

Just because it's a PRC doesn't mean it has to get something at 30 for being pure, in fact, a lot of the best PRC abilities are gained at lower levels and increase based on lvl dedication and/or a stat, slowly improving. It's the player's decision to pick their cutoff based on the rest of the build.

A couple notes on your posts, rain... you are assuming a lot of the reasons for changes, things like 'why svirfs were nerfed' or why the slammer was nerfed. I DO agree that they were changed to be more in-line with other races/classes/jobs/etc. We've already been told by the devs that nothing is cut and dry anymore... putting a race/ability/class in-line with the rest is a subjective call on their part. It's our job to bring up things that they may gloss over or may miss entirely.

I am of the belief that the dev's (and DMs) know more about the details of what changes than we are. They also seem to know more about the game mechanics than the majority of us. Based on that, using RP reasons for a change is absolutely ridiculous. I think most of us have a false sense of what we think is right, since very few of us really know everything that goes into the server.

Knowing that you have never had an RDD, or played AS one... have you played against one? 1 v 1... 15 v 15 in event play or large scale PvP? Have you ever seen 10 teammates rush the AO cradle to be met by 10 defenders at the door? Sounds like a good battle, right? What if 4 or 6 of your 10 were instantly feared and killed in the first 2 rounds? Maybe a little bit OP

Edit: re-reading my post at the end... imagine if you have to make 3 of those saves because there were 3 dragons next to each other.

[Lokey]

My thoughts at that Shifters are incredibly weak compared a 30 RDD build. Should it be DC 50? Probably not, but Shifters are weak compared to an RDD. DC 45? Sure.

Monk/sorc/RDD < Shifter dragon any mix < Druid for the amount of things you can do on your own and probably altogether.

I rolled a 2 on fear the other day, my poor wiz. I need to go kick Tep to make me a crafted ammy

[Rainswept]

So, you folks (Except for Lokey) believe that RDD dragons are consistently so much more powerful than shifters that the shifters deserve 10-15 points higher DC on the fear aura?

I know to some of you that will sound like a sarcastic question, but that's how the responses on here are reading, so let's spell it out.

you are assuming a lot of the reasons for changes, things like 'why svirfs were nerfed' or why the slammer was nerfed

I'm not assuming, I asked and those were the answers I got. If my statements are wrong, I'm sure a DM or Dev will correct me.

[Tsavong]

So, you folks (Except for Lokey) believe that RDD dragons are consistently so much more powerful than shifters that the shifters deserve 10-15 points higher DC on the fear aura?

RDD Dragons are diffent than shifter builds. and shifers dont deserve anything they work for there fear do RDD dragons need to put into wisdem for theres? No. Do RDD dragons need a epic feat for theres? No. Do RDD dragons need to be only Sorc/Bard and RDD? No. Do they deserve a fear aura of 30+d20? No.

[Rainswept]

By deserve I meant only to make them balanced.

[LinuxPup]

Are they not balanced now? What's the big issue? What's their AB/AC? I haven't been hearing about swarms of people flocking to druids or shifters as much as RDDs... must be something good about those RDDs.

[Tsavong]

So did I Rainswept. From fighting them they feal about right. I have to say AO use them well.