Epic Mage Armor nerf........

[Daltian]

Good to see AC on mages fixed. Its the right way to go. Unless someone can tell me a good reason why not......

[Alkapwn]

[VagaStorm]

I think any build with anny build with more than 60 ac should be auto nerfed

[Daltian]

I think any build with anny build with more than 60 ac should be auto nerfed

I actually agree with that one. It's probably impossible to do, but would make sense. I want to see power attack used in PvP.

[Alkapwn]

no wonder you guys die so much

[Tru3Fals3]

no wonder you guys die so much

[OpalimTeGolim]

If you want to create melee server and wipe out wizard/sorc casters, this is the bestest change ever.

IGMS and ice storms are main pvp caster weapons and this change would hurt them a lot. If I read your post correctly, you want to Make EMA IGMS immune, right? Making EMA immune to IGMS you create whole new class of toon that are immune to IGMS spammers. We already have a reflection robe for that. There is not dmg resistance (as far as I know) and there is no ac on reflection robes, which makes them less popular among melee toons, but EMA does not have such problems. Now you can wear sexy +6 robe and be protected from IGMS. And there are lots of lvl 15 pale master builds that are melee toons. And also there are few wiz melee builds that use EMA (I'm thinking of Bakura's fancy axe now. With this change I could just dance around him while my IGMS bounce off his EMA. Scarry scene, since if he hits me once my hp bar drops to half. Also, if he is wearing some sexy bludgeoning resistance robe and cold res cape, ice storms can't do much dmg either. Oh, and there is spell mantle to soak up some ice storm dmg too). Also, let me just mention SR as a way to combat IGMS. Oh, lvl 1 spell shield also makes IGMS useless unless you can dispell it (which is expensive coz you can use those slots for more IGMS).

So, my question is, how should wizards fight? Party unfriendly ice storms? Lvl 2 melf's? Some spell that allows for reflex saves? Or maybe with a stick? A nerf stick

I hope we see the same problem.

Now about ac changes:

I have the feeling that you are trying to make changes such that no matter which class combo you take, your AC would be approximately the same as of pure wizard. One of the main reasons why wiz/monks wiz/clerics are being built is to get higher AC. Even with monk lvls your discipline gets to like 50ies with feats (or equipment), which means that if a decent melee toon hits you while trying kd, you will fall like a sack of potatoes. Once down, you loose tumble bonus and boot bonus (and maybe some more), so, combined with your relatively low hp, you stay down. That is why AC 70 is really needed - you can avoid attack while you are running around. Plus, any class can get haste if they take blinding speed feat, so running is not so easy. Also, when you cast, you can't move. The guy chasing you can. My point, if you can't avoid their attack, they will kd you.

Here are just few scenarios:
- Pure fighter knocks you down with fighter token and you are dead (Hello Cyclone!). Pure fighters get disc over 100 and roll on fighter token (according to wiki) is their dc vs your dc. Meaning, you will loose every time. No save or anything. They run to you, they use token, you are dead. Pure fighters also get nice speed boost which (according to wiki) stacks with haste, meaning they will outrun you.
- AA will make holes in you without even trying hard since ab should be in 60ies or higher. If they get reflecting robe you can spam them with ice storms assuming you have it slotted and that they won't interrupt you while casting.
- Pure bard can silence you, curse you, cast dirge, buff himself.. just choose. Pure dex bards can get ab in 60ies after they buff themselfs (that's why they make such cute dissarmers) which means you go down when they hit you. And oyu don't get up. (Even 35 bard/5 sd can hit ac 70 wiz, since wizards mostly don't have blind fighting and hipsers get +4 as far as I know. I also think that hips removes some dodge ac too. Is that so?)
- Stunning fists makes you immobile and you have a good chance of dying
- Paralyze makes you immobile and you... ermm am I repeating myself?
- Cleric heals faster than you can kill. One heal is worth around 2 maxed IGMS. And they can slot more heals than you can slot IGMS. Monks alone might have hard time killing you, if you can survive implosion (and have ac 70 to avoid their bonuses from buffs/domains), but if they have IQ just bit over 70, they will stand there and heal heal heal until you are done with spamming and they will leave laughing. Draw at best.
- Oh, did I mention that taunt gets your ac to 60ies again and you get 30% chance of failing spell when casting? And taunter will wear some cute extra taunt equipment (heh, crafted belt gives +8 taunt). IGMS spammer usually doesn't have extra concentration coz he needs extra spell slots.
- You can hit monks with melfs since they have crazy SR (I have not tested this, just heard the stories. can someone confirm this?). They can't hit you most likely if you have ac 70, so it's a draw. You can only watch them as they take your relic away.

However, you CAN and WILL smash many builds that are on the server. But then again, those are the people who think that AC 60 is enough for pvp caster. They are not fun to kill because pvp is not their thing (plus, I'd never kill Daltian, I like the guy ). For me, pvp is about joy of killing someone who understands mechanics of pvp game well. When I kill him, I feel nice coz I outsmarted him, and since I know he's good, it makes me even better in some way. And also, it's funny if they whine after the fight )

Anyway, Listed above are mostly pure classes. I did not say anything about extra cheese you can get by using tenser's transform, extra ab from cleric war domain, war cry for only 10 bard lvls, wm bonus, dispelling, mording, and so on. Point is that there are lots of ways to get ab high enough to hit ac 70 or to get ac 70 low enough to hit it with lower ab. Oh, with ac in 60ies, bigby 9 will squeeze the life out of you.

So Lokey, please take that into consideration when thinking about forcing ac to low or mid 60ies.

My point is that it is not impossible to make a toon that can hit ac 70. But you need to build toon correctly. If you can't hit ac 70 with your toon, try building a toon which can (I gave you some suggestions). And also, most likely you DON'T need to build a toon with high ab coz there are many ways to bypass armor (spells, curses, WoF, fighter token, fear auras (I've heard barb can get it high)). Why most players don't use those options is beyond me. (sorry for repeating myself here)

In the end, I wouldn't even try building a toon with low 60 ac, no disc, low hp and poor melee capabilities. My mama could knock him down. What good is ac that can be hit if your opponent rolls 6? You can't run that fast. I wouldn't even suggest someone to try building that. Kids, it's a no no.

Lokey, if you make this change, I think the server might loose a class of toons - toons that kill with spells, not with metal. This EMA nerf is even bigger than -6 AC from few weeks ago. So, why is this change good?

[renarð]

With all the hate against IGMS and caster AC, I thought I would do a post detailing the difficulties of playing an offensive caster. Note: this has nothing to do with casters that shift, hybrids that melee, or buffbots. The difficulties can be summed up in 3 parts: Survivability, Saves, and Save-like abilities which I will address in reverse order. Last bit is the viable offensive caster builds.



Save-like abilities: Casters have to be nearly pure to beat SR and can’t use spells with reflex saves.

Evasion is probably the ability that makes me most sad (not necessarily the most powerful). Evasion is what prevents mages from pvping with chain lightning and druids from owning with bombardment. Quite simply the majority of pvp toons have evasion and almost every single pvp toon can make a reflex save reliably. When you have to depend on them failing a save, are you going to try for something that does 20d6 damage or something that makes them dead? This single “feat” ruins so many spells in pvp. (I once suggested to a DM that epic spell focus evocation should ignore the evasion feats and was shot down, maybe someday).

Spell resistance is another issue casters have to face. I would guess about 1/3 of the pvp toons on this server have a nice 45 racial SR. Many other have access to it via spell. This means that if I am playing a mage I can dip as low as 30ish and still reliably land spells after a mords, if I’m a cleric I am pretty much hosed if I multiclass unless I carry and can use mord scrolls ($$$). Druids have a nifty SR reduction ability as well, but since they cant do anything worthwhile unshifted, does anyone care? What really hurts the caster though is the undispellable SR spell cast on the party. You know, the multiboxer who has his 40 cleric cast 52 SR on every party member and is impossible (not difficult, but impossible) to dispel.



Saves: Casters can’t use spells with typical saves, or have to use instant kill spells.

First off I would like to point out that the maximum DC on a standard spell is 48; this requires 2 pre-epic feats and 11 epic feats. Secondly, it is trivial to get +40 to all saves versus spells. If you disagree with this, I or someone else will be more than happy to illustrate how easy it is.

The issue with saves has forced offensive casters to either focus on spells with no saves (IGMS, WoF, harm), spells with other saves (the bigby line), duration spells which ignore spellcraft (SOV, grease), or spells with massive payoff if a person fails (i.e. implode).

The point is the above pretty much limits mages to doing damage with igms and crowd control with bigby. If you are a cleric, you get to do SoV, harm, and WoF. If you totally max your DC, sometimes you can get some insta-kills, sometimes you won’t get any.

Now I would like to point out that the non-spell abilities that melee get that do not worry about spellcraft and have comparable, or higher DC’s. Shifters can rock the 50dc fear aura, RDD get a 35dc for just being cool, stunning fist can hit 70 dc (humorously it takes fewer feats), assassin insta-kill 50 dc etc. Some of these are 1 shot, some of them aren’t, some require stat pumps or feats (i.e. sacrifices) some of them not so much, some are conditional. The point is that some melee classes are better at crowd control and disabling characters than dedicated casters.



Survivability: AC and HiPS is all we got.

Simply put, we can’t have the HP of melee builds (Sorry but a PM is a melee build), and even if we did, if we are taking hits we are getting interrupted by STR builds. The only survivability an offensive caster has is AC or HiPS. But what about your spells you ask? Simply put no one should consistently fail a spell with a standard save. Our reliable survivability spells are reduced to the bigby line (removable by a crafted item) and word of faith (also easily removed). I’m sorry, but if things like grease are tearing you up, you are either an RDD or playing a poorly built toon. HiPS either means your caster levels are crap (good luck with SR), or your discipline skill is nonexistent.

Truth is a bad AC means (<65) you will be knocked down or fist stunned, or just arrow raped in the 3 rounds it takes to remove 500 HP, a couple more rounds if you happen to be one of those lucky d8 hp classes. This is not about being swarmed in group pvp, this is the life of a caster with bad ac in 1v1 combat. We have archers and melee rocking 70 ab self buffed, you do the math.

A nerf to the AC of mage builds simply means we will go back to using the autostill feats (one of the reasons you bumped epic mage armor to 12 if I remember correctly) and full plate with a shield. If you nerf a cleric’s monk derived wisdom ac or divine shield, they are just going to have to start pumping STR to avoid the KDs and then they might as well go melee build.



Offensive casters: the two flavors:

1) Max your casting stat, cast insta-kill spells, try some greater dispel for some extra success. Aim for the people without guild tags because they are most likely casual players. This means they probably aren’t ecl 3 (no pesky SR), and might not even be 40. They probably have lower saves because they aren’t geared up and have less experience building toons in general. You probably have crap hp but hey you get to laugh at anyone that fails your spell.

2a) Cast IGMS. You gotta beat SR still but no pesky saves. Keep track of those with the reflecting robe and those popping shield scrolls (gotta keep casting lesser spell breach on them). Must have a ridiculously high AC because it takes 4-5 rounds to kill someone that is away from the group. Be ready to reply with smarmy comments when people accuse you of spamming igms.

2b) Cast Harm. You gotta beat SR still and they will pass the save, but its still good damage. Even with blindfight you will miss 25% of the time so try to get rid of their improved invis with dispell, you can’t however use invis purge or your team will yell at you. In reality tho, you should be playing an imploder or a melee cleric because they are better toons.

3) Pretend that icestorm is a good pvp spell, afterall it ignores SR and evasion. It only has two types of damage reduction, mediocre damage, a small recticle, and best of all it hits your team members and does wonders for your faction rep when defending.

[Lokey]

Thx for the two long posts. Stunning fist is a known out of line ability that will eventually be kicked in the head.

There are other spells besides IGMS (which bards, clerics and druids can counter from level 15ish on--and clers have more spell slots than you). Of course it would be insane to make a few scrolls when you stop by Avendell or pare down your buffs to what you really need.

Transmutation school is a good one: if they have a weak save (not a given, but don't know until you try) you have something that's going to make them unable to catch you (one that bypasses freedom). If stuff is sneaking up on your wizard, you're doing it wrong (it's easier to get better spot on an arcane caster than cler outside NC). My pure wiz hits 90 in 2 spells with wis as a low priority, one feat and no spot items (they wouldn't help: 20 ranks, 10 ESkF, 50 magic, wis, elf bonus), add 23 if you take a class with spot.

An AA can punch your ticket pretty easily, but then so can many things. It depends on if they can counter/survive what you do...like everything else.

[Daltian]

Two long posts with so much incorect info. You should try read more and write less.


If pure fighter owns your wizard, you are doing it wrong.

If druid ownd your wizard, you are doing it wrong.

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[renarð]

Please enlighten...

[Daltian]

Please enlighten...

Pure fighter is so weak on saves and at most as fast as you are. Wizard has so many disabling spells between bigsby and different mind spells you are really playing wrong class if he makes it to you and manages to spend one round to use the token. Try sloting different spells or just build/play better.

Druid is either super slow or has no discipline/evasion, so kite or just kill him with few damage spells after you morded him.

I'll read some more of your post to write more.

[Daltian]

Now you also mentioned shifter. If you cant kill shifter because of his fear aura you really need to learn to play wizard. Shifter dragons worst nightmare is wizard. And no, I will not tell you how. I still want our dragons to be able to kill noob arcane casters.

[renarð]

Please enlighten...

Pure fighter is so weak on saves and at most as fast as you are. Wizard has so many disabling spells between bigsby and different mind spells you are really playing wrong class if he makes it to you and manages to spend one round to use the token. Try sloting different spells or just build/play better.

Druid is either super slow or has no discipline/evasion, so kite or just kill him with few damage spells after you morded him.

I'll read some more of your post to write more.


Now you also mentioned shifter. If you cant kill shifter because of his fear aura you really need to learn to play wizard. Shifter dragons worst nightmare is wizard. And no, I will not tell you how. I still want our dragons to be able to kill noob arcane casters.

I don't recall ever saying pure fighter, but I will bite. I have a level 36 pure ftr with 40 fort, 36 reflex, 40 will versus spells. Additionally, I have 54 ab, 63 ac, and 596 HP. At 40 and geared out the toon would have over 45 in all saves versus spells and 68 ac. It's a dexer so I get to be essentially immune to bigby 9. Bigby 7 is annoying but if they wanna stand still casting a spell, I am willing to stand still and use a rod.

This is on a level _36_ pure toon with zero potions, scrolls, books, or outside buffs. If your fighter's saves suck, I wouldn't be blaming the game.



I never said I had problems killing shifters, I was using them as an example of how many "melee" classes have superior crowd control abilities. Humorously, the class you chose to pick as a counter to my argument uses a will save just like the spell Lokey suggested. Only the DC is higher, is a passive area effect, ignores spellcraft, and fully disables the toon instead of just ensnaring it.

[Daltian]

I don't recall ever saying pure fighter, but I will bite. I have a level 36 pure ftr with 40 fort, 36 reflex, 40 will versus spells. Additionally, I have 54 ab, 63 ac, and 596 HP. At 40 and geared out the toon would have over 45 in all saves versus spells and 68 ac. It's a dexer so I get to be essentially immune to bigby 9. Bigby 7 is annoying but if they wanna stand still casting a spell, I am willing to stand still and use a rod.

This is on a level _36_ pure toon with zero potions, scrolls, books, or outside buffs. If your fighter's saves suck, I wouldn't be blaming the game.



I never said I had problems killing shifters, I was using them as an example of how many "melee" classes have superior crowd control abilities. Humorously, the class you chose to pick as a counter to my argument uses a will save just like the spell Lokey suggested. Only the DC is higher, is a passive area effect, ignores spellcraft, and fully disables the toon instead of just ensnaring it.

Your pure fighter is dex based and isn't a typical pure fighter toon. So don't say pure fighters have it easy. Also, that pure fighter also doesn't kill a wizard in time his token gets him on the ground. Damage simply isn't good enough. BTW, how good AC does that pure fighter have when lying on the floor after helball and being bashed by a solar and your 2 spells per round?

Maybe you are stunning fist built fighter, and then you can indeed kill a wizard. And with that I agree that it's overpowered and should be changed. But not by giving AC to wizards, its stun inbalance, not wizard one.

Also, it doesnt take you 1 round to cast a spell, it takes you 1 round to cast 2 spells.


And dont say "shifters have superior crowd control". Its simply not true. You are trying bending the truth and saying only stuff that suits you.

Can I also add that wizards burst damage is highly superior to that of a shifter, which asks for different aproach to defenses of the same char. Something that can dish out so much damage in so little time shouldn't have same defense as one with lower damage.


To add to all this. I do agree that pure wizards do benefit from higher AC, not for PvP purposes where they are very good even without it but for PvM.