Dragons

[Rufio]

MA has pale masters. Githzerai also have +4 ac, not +6.

[Korr]

I have a druid/shifter ice storm spammer (cant add monk due to restrictions) with auto quick3. Sadly you cant maximize or empower the rakshasas ice storms

[Tal]

MA has pale masters. Githzerai also have +4 ac, not +6.

Actually it is +6 if monk class.. 4 from token, 1 from wis, and 1 from dex.

[Rufio]

yeah, but you can get just as good stat bonuses from other races.

[ashsagoon]

I hope you got my point there, and I like how you play this "establishing the facts" game. But you missed few facts and you missed to put the things into right context. As RDD, you get +2 CON (extra 40 hp), +2 CHA (extra spells or ability to start your buld with 17 CHR, not 19, which is like 5 ability points difference) and +2 INT (so you can start with INT 12 or 14 and you'll shave nuf skill pts). I would say that is what makes the difference and allows you to build much stronger sorc/monk/RDD in AO than in other factions.

Now for the context, I think it's ironic that the best sorcs are available in AO, while MA, which are supposed to be magic inclined, has the worst ones probably. By best I mean sorcs with highest ac, hp and most spell slots (you can add some disc for lvl 9 bigbys too). In MA you can't get high enough ac (no monks allowed). AO beats SL because as AO you can choose Githzerai (that race is +6 AC for sorc/monk combo, not available in SL since SL is evil only) and if you get 10 RDD classes you get another +4 AC. If I can get non Gith, non RDD wiz/monk with no bard song to hit ac 70, then I am sure you can get sorc with ac over 80 in AO easily. My guess is that PwnD either has such mage already and are not showing it often or that you are not even attempting to make it since you don't need such high ac atm, and it's always good to have some backup plan in case EMA or something else gets nerfed (I apologize if I'm wrong). RK can for the most part do almost everything SL can.

Ah, also I will point out here that the problem IS NOT Epic Mage Armor, and lowering it wouldn't fix the problem coz you'd still have sorcs in AO that are untouchable to bigby and most melee attackers, while SL wizards would be hurt and it would ruin what's left of MA wizards because their AC is in the toilet already (60ies at best). Problem is in the combination of classes/races. And AO's mix is the best. This is all under assumption that the problem of having high ac wiz is a real one. They stil can be hit by ice storms and so far I haven't seen any playing TC Githzerai druid/monk/SD ice storm spammer. Hmm.. I wonder if that would work..

Btw. is Peck Githzerai? Coz I'd trade keen senses for +6 ac for keen senses and I wouldn't call it poor choice

So anyway, those are also the facts.

"I would say that is what makes the difference and allows you to build much stronger sorc/monk/RDD in AO than in other factions."
What other factions can you build a sorc/monk/RDD in????

"You can add some discipline for level 9 bigby's too."
I have no idea what this means. Are you trying to say the caster's discipline affects their level 9 Bigby? I assure you it doesn't. And if you're trying to say you can have more discipline to defend against the level 9 bigby then you've completely missed my entire point in building Peck which was to get a high enough AC so that I would never fail the first check on the bigby and therefore never make a discipline check. Furthermore, a Sorc/BG or Sorc/Fighter or Sorc/Barbarian or Sorc/Bard or Sorc/ManyOtherClasses can all get just as much discipline as a Sorc/RDD or Sorc/Monk or Sorc/Monk/RDD.

You really have to work out the builds and usually get them to 40 before you can say how good they are. Simply looking at Gith and saying +4 ac and wis and dex would be awesome doesn't really work. The -2 int really hurts even if it is somewhat compensated for by the RDD because the earliest you can get that +2 RDD int is about level 14 and that's by making your toon really hard to level and sacrificing other things (like saves) as well as possibly losing feats (because you can't get pre-reqs in time). And even after all that you'd still be 14 skill points short. Gith wasn't that great a choice but he turned out alright for no books.

Anyway, I find it ironic that you say you can't get enough AC in MA because of no monks when you have the single highest AC prestige class there is. Pale masters are by far the highest AC toons on the server. Tep's PM has over 100ac (at least that's what he says, I don't want to misquote) and I know Bolg and others can hit that too. You also get immunity to critical hits (which includes stunning fist, quivering palm, sneak attack, etc.. I know I just posted this in another thread) which is a HUGE advantage. Peck may have an extra 40 hps but a hit that does 250 damage to him will only do 50 or so to a 10 PM. With 12 PM levels you get +8 to ac and further dedication gets you even higher. PMs also get 18 bonus hps with 10 PM levels. Both prestige classes (RDD and PM) are great and also have their disadvantages but you completely ignored PMs in your post. Oh and you can have Gith in MA as well so you get a bonus 5ac from the subrace! Yeah that's 1ac less than if you could have monk but you get 4ac more for 12 PM levels so lets call it even.

I haven't built a high AC sorc or dedicated caster in MA so I can't give you specific numbers. I haven't even looked at builds but just by reading the wikis and seeing what other people have gives me a pretty good idea. What I have seen is Zerg's awesome Sorc/BG build that can take Peck at least 50% of the time (yes, we duel a lot). Oh and he has much better saves and DCs and spell penetration and a plethora of other things. But that's what he built for and I built mine differently so you really can't compare the two directly.

As far as SL goes, there's a DD toon with 83ish AC. I think it's some sort of sorc/monk/bg, I can't remember. But that's at least 10ac higher than Peck. Just because YOU don't have a SL caster with more than 60ac doesn't mean other people don't. Oh and SL can't have Gith? Are you trying to say there's no neutral evil alignment? You can't have a Gith monk that's true but why take Gith when there are so many other subraces? I'm fairly sure the DD is not Gith. SL also isn't built to be high AC or strong. The RDD class is meant to be while SL's prestige class is the Assassin which is meant to be weak physically but incredibly deadly when they sneak up on you.

RK can do almost everything SL can is also way off base. RK is restricted to Dwarves and Gnomes which is INCREDIBLY limiting. No Arcane Archers, only 1 keen sense race that has a -4 cha (try making a sorc with that), etc. RK is great but please don't try to compare the two.

So no, the best sorcs aren't available in AO necessarily. MA probably does have the best sorcs depending on what you're trying to get out of it, even if it is purely AC. Oh and did you forget that MA has jobs? They get a token that gives them -2 to -3 ab on non-evil opponents which effectively gives them another 2-3ac. Oh, and the other job is +3ac vs outsiders. Now I'm not sure if that's significant because of how squirrelly NWN is but that could be an extra 3ac vs outsider subraces (like my Gith sorc!). I don't think it is though.

I think you need to read the wiki and maybe play around with some builds before you post again. Also, what does this have to do with Dragons (the thread topic)? And give a little more credit to the guys in SL and MA working hard to build great toons. There are some people with awesome builds better than anything I could come up with who aren't complaining here because they can't kill one specific toon with their favorite toon. Those are the the people who build another toon to counteract what's beating them. That's what pvp in NWN is all about. If something beats me I build something that can kill it. Not "my toon can't kill this so it should be nerfed."

@Tal: Since you made it a point I'll reiterate that MA has Githzerai.

[arvut]

Please keep this thread ontopic guys, its about dragons (possibly combined with monk levels since you can use shapechange to be one). Not about druids sick-ac mages, ac githz's or anything else.

I'd love to discuss the other subject in a new thread so I'll just go create one for ya

The new fear dc for dragons looks good, balance is what we need and balance is most likely what the devs are aiming for. You have my gratitude for all that hard work, keep it up!

[Amoenotep]

you lose ac for being a monk and polymorphing...its been that way for a long time....stupid linuxpup...liked my 110ac kobold.