Nerf city here we come....

[Iron Cat]

This server is rapidly becoming the nerf capital of the world.Is it not the idea of the game to solve problems and overcome challenges by building better toons within the rules? Instead we have inferior builders whining about various things and these are then nerfed,reducing everybody to the level of mediocrity of these poor builders.The latest example is the RK slammer...it had a DC of 36.So if a toon cant beat that ...? A lot of the new nerfs are specific to certain factions as well.The slammer for RK was ok for 6 years,now its not?Is it because the hardest faction to build in is now popular and so needs to be made more difficult? Why dont we all try to build better..is this not the motto "Dont whine..build better toons!" If a better build comes along the solution seems to be to nerf its best features,so the more pathetic builders dont have to think!! How sad is this?

[burrahobbit]

How are job tokens part of your build?

If you had to use the slammer to win fights then you need to take you own advice and build better.

[cRaZy8or5e]

This server is rapidly becoming the nerf capital of the world.Is it not the idea of the game to solve problems and overcome challenges by building better toons within the rules? Instead we have inferior builders whining about various things and these are then nerfed,reducing everybody to the level of mediocrity of these poor builders.The latest example is the RK slammer...it had a DC of 36.So if a toon cant beat that ...? A lot of the new nerfs are specific to certain factions as well.The slammer for RK was ok for 6 years,now its not?Is it because the hardest faction to build in is now popular and so needs to be made more difficult? Why dont we all try to build better..is this not the motto "Dont whine..build better toons!" If a better build comes along the solution seems to be to nerf its best features,so the more pathetic builders dont have to think!! How sad is this?

Was the DC changed to the Stalwart slammer? Do you need it to knock toons(usually noobs or lowbies) down for longer than 10 rounds. Usually a 2 round KD is MORE than enough time to kill someone.

Of course I remember when they took the speed stacking away from the NC defender of the pure and I was POed, so I understand your sentiment. But really, the nerfs weren't as bad as they seemed. As you said a superior builder doesn't really need to include job items into a build, they're just a bonus.

[DM_Kim]

cRaZy8or5e said it best. Jobs are just a bonus and should be a sleight bonus at that. They have nothing to do with your build.

RK jobs in particular can offer a skill "KD" to classes that would otherwise have no way to KD an opponent. It is the only job bonus of it's kind. No other faction has an ability that is even close to it.

If you were to take a closer look at all the other faction job bonuses, they offer a small stat, skill, damage or a specific type of ac bonus. RK is the only one with a feat bonus.

[diddy33]

i'm not to upset about the slammer, only time i used it was on bingo who's 40 and that was to try to bring out HIPSers. which worked quite a few times actually. i can see how some people may not have waited till 40 to do those jobs and could be helpful leveling lol.

i'm not to happy about the traps though. that kinda makes me just want to go kill instead of level. so far i've been killed twice by the results of a trap. i'd be running around a mob trying to get into a good position and bam! sonic trap or whatever and i'm stunned for what seems like 2 minutes while the mob kills me. . come to think of it i'm not sure how long that sonic trap last because ever time i've hit one there was a mob nice enough to come kill me when i tripped it.

traps are funny haha, but come on. . i'm a big believer in exploring the server. . this makes you think twice. i usually run places instead of the dragon, now the dragon would be safer. . but wait. . he drops you off in BFE and you have to run and hopefully not hit any traps.

i was kinda upset about the dragon, but come to realize, yeah that's actually kinda funny and the percentage seems to have lowered so i actually haven't fallen off in quite some time. but these traps kill and cause exp loss, i don't see how this is funny or amusing to anyone.

i do have a question though, if i remember correctly, the spawned traps cause exp loss if they kill you, and the player traps don't. . what if i was to take my rogue out and collect a bunch of these epic traps and bring them back to DF or something and set them? would they still be considered a spawned trap that causes xp loss, or a player trap that doesn't cause xp loss?

not saying i would, some rule about intentional exp loss, blah blah blah. . but i was curious.

[Rainswept]

I'm with Iron Cat on this. The Tokens remained unchanged and not a problem for 6 years, until people complained.

Seems like a clear case of greasing squeaky wheels.

[Korr]

@diddy if you claim these traps then you set them down, theyre yours no exp loss (flagged as player trap im guessing).

And if you want to know the best way to avoid the traps, get some search skill or bring a roguish character around with you in your party.

@Iron Cat. Do you realize that the RK job token had an ability that would last 5x as long as the pure fighter token a pure fighter gets at level 34? And also 5x as long as the barbarian pure class ability. What reasoning should there ever have been to allow one entire faction to have an ability that would trump bonuses given to those for dedication to being pure?

[Bargeld]

The slammer in it's previous state had been mentioned quite often actually. I'm guessing that it never received attention because, up until recently (last server wipe), nobody played out of RK. Now with many players in RK it's glaringly obvious that it was OP.

A 36 DC is actually pretty decent when you consider that you don't get bonuses vs spells.

[frogofpeace]

I agree with Bargeld - 36 DC is good (I bet it'll still get a lot of hipsers), and with more players comes more opportunity to examine an imbalance.

The Miner's Forge seems out of line, too (if I understand correctly what is being used; I've only done one RK toon ever) - drops at least one of my guy's AB by 8; if it adds to the dorf's AC as well, that's better than bard song and curse song combined.

Lokey asked for feedback on the traps in game last night so he could adjust, I think.

[ashsagoon]

It was long before my time but I've heard many stories from different players and DMs about the infamous Bikini Bottom boys from RK like Sandy Cheeks and Gary and many more who were the most powerful on the server at one point and won relic events etc. What I've heard from everyone is that the power moves from faction to faction and every faction has seen it's heyday. Anyway, the slammer was around when BB was and I'm sure they used it plenty.

Anyway, the duration was pretty long although the save was too low for anyone who knew what a will save was to fail (kinda like dragon fear aura now). But the duration was longer than other items. Btw, don't compare it to the fighter token as the fighter token is almost completely unresistible (who can beat a 110-120+ discipline check?).

What I don't understand is why it was called an exploit to use this job token and why were people threatened to be banned if they questioned the nerf. If it's an exploit to use job tokens then please go after MA and NC. These guys are the worst of the worst when it comes to job token exploiting. With their unresistible damage shields (10+ divine damage per hit for ANY toon built out of NC, are you kidding me???) and undispellible true seeing. Oh and that red stuff that recently has been doing things like unshifting people and dropping AB/AC about 20 points (both these are fixed now as far as I can tell).

If the Stalwart Slammer was considered overpowered, then maybe it's time we take a look at all the other tokens from the other factions. Let's take the NC damage shield as an example. With no consideration to build they get a more powerful shield than a level 40 paladin gets that deals completely unresistible divine damage on every hit and lasts a long long time and can't be dispelled in any fashion. Similarly, I could make an Azerblood dwarf and get an undispellible fire damage shield with similar damage but very very resistible type of damage (fire) and have to pay the price of ECL +2 for it. Or I can dedicate a LOT of levels (and/or feats [numbers: 40 caster levels or 30 caster + spell focus or 20ish caster + greater spell focus or 10-15ish caster levels + epic spell focus]) into a casting class and at least one spell in order to gain a weak (fire) to decent (acid) to good (magic) damage shield that is instantly stripped with a lesser spell breach or above scroll or spell. If I want a divine shield then I'll have to go Paladin and pure paladin at that in order to get less damage than these NC guys get for free. Oh and did I mention this NC token also gives 1d4-1d6 unresistible divine damage on your weapon as well? Wow that's even better than a pure paladin's holy sword because this divine damage will hit anyone, not just evil/neutral. And that's just ONE of their tokens.


For the record:
1. the Slammer DC at level 40 is DC 30 above ground and DC 35 below ground.
2. the Miner's Forge does NOT drop AB at ALL and doesn't even drop AC like it's supposed to (supposed to strip 1ac off heavy plate and shields, right now it will give the user the ac but won't take it from the guy you used it on)

[BlkMamba]

How are job tokens part of your build?

If you had to use the slammer to win fights then you need to take you own advice and build better.

How many times has my Dex based WM died on NC or MA's damage shield
Those have no saves and the NC shield is unresistable

So, I build around it

cRaZy8or5e said it best. Jobs are just a bonus and should be a sleight bonus at that. They have nothing to do with your build.

RK jobs in particular can offer a skill "KD" to classes that would otherwise have no way to KD an opponent. It is the only job bonus of it's kind. No other faction has an ability that is even close to it.

If you were to take a closer look at all the other faction job bonuses, they offer a small stat, skill, damage or a specific type of ac bonus. RK is the only one with a feat bonus.

SL offers full speed Hide, that assasins can death attack out of with no chance to see'm before they are there
Unless you can make the nice 40 something save, your done

@diddy if you claim these traps then you set them down, theyre yours no exp loss (flagged as player trap im guessing).

And if you want to know the best way to avoid the traps, get some search skill or bring a roguish character around with you in your party.

@Iron Cat. Do you realize that the RK job token had an ability that would last 5x as long as the pure fighter token a pure fighter gets at level 34? And also 5x as long as the barbarian pure class ability. What reasoning should there ever have been to allow one entire faction to have an ability that would trump bonuses given to those for dedication to being pure?

The DC for the fighters KD and Barbs roars are alot higher and much harder to make than the slammer

The slammer in it's previous state had been mentioned quite often actually. I'm guessing that it never received attention because, up until recently (last server wipe), nobody played out of RK. Now with many players in RK it's glaringly obvious that it was OP.

A 36 DC is actually pretty decent when you consider that you don't get bonuses vs spells.

Pre-Wipe i fought RK all the time and the slammer got my WM once
Neither the slammer or the miners token could touch my Heavy Cleric



Now, am i upset with the change, no, i didnt rely on it to start with
most people would just make the save
but what this does is give a safeguard to alot of builds
Oh! i dont have to have a will save now i can put them pts someplace else
thats the part i dont agree with
why should i have to build around everyone elses jobs
and yet what i use to keep toon in check is getting heh Slammed

Now, I'm not saying return it, or nerf anyone elses or anything
just that the arguements here are invalid
the Slammer was used more to keep people in check than anything
same as the other job bonuses

Peace and Enjoy cya all soon
Mamba....

[LinuxPup]

If you recover a spawned trap (which we encourage btw) and use it in PvP (which we encourage btw) there shouldn't be XP loss. I expected some early headaches due to few players using Search.

[cRaZy8or5e]

Here's a screenie of the miner's forge taking AB.

In the middle of the combat log, you'll see diamondback using his special item. Use this as your reference point.

A little quick bit about dual wield melee attacks. All main hand attacks take place first, then your hasted/blinding speed extra attack, then your off hand attacks.

Immediately above diamondback using the special item you'll see my hasted attack at 68 AB, then below you'll see my offhand attack at 57 AB. -11 AB to my high AB .

For the record in the shout log, my AB had just dropped from 75 due to bard song and divine favor goin away, -5 pure bard song and -2 divine favor. Divine favor is only -2 cuz I'm already at +18 enhancement bonus (+6 weapons, +11 25 CoT divine wrath, +1 blinding speed). Normally Divine Favor is +3. So I didn't actually drop from 75 to 57 like I thought lol, it just looked like it till I took a closer look. I still was reduced from 68 to 57 though lol. Hope this clarifies things.


By crazy8or5e at 2009-07-11

Perhaps there is another explanation as to why I was reduced by 11 AB. Maybe Mamba has some other cool little toy, but it looked and made the animation of the miner's forge .

[BlkMamba]

Miners Forge has a funny effect on Divine Favor, Divine Power and Aura
on Monolith i dont use it period, bumps my AC, but actually lowers my own AB
prolly has the same effect on Divine Wrath on opponents as well
i just assumed it was desiged not to be used around clerics
Pre-Wipe i'd have to hit a restore after the miners token to remove the effect
so its been around a long time


Mamba...

[frogofpeace]

ah that kind of makes sense. thanks, mamba