Epic Mage Armor nerf........

[VagaStorm]

Saying 70ab is common is a bit over the top. Only few builds have that sort of ab and they have weakneses that a skilled wizard would have no problem using against them. I still think that +6 is too much considering cheese ac some wizards can get. I say make it highely caster level dependent with exponential growth. So only true commited wizard has great benefit from it. Remember, Armour Skin is epic feat and only gives 2 AC.

70 AB is getting to be more and more common. a 25 BAB pure bard can attain it with very little work now self buffed, Pure fighters, RDD dragons, CoT's, of course AA's but they were one of those classes with the biggest ease in attaining that sort of AB.
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As I said only few builds can attain it. You need to consider not everyone is playing only those builds specificaly. And wizards has means to win without having 80+ AC.

Well, at lest fight, cot, cleric, bard, aa, barb and wm should be able to do that on their own if they'r willing to try.

[Frendel]

Is there even 1 pure arcane caster build that doesn't depend on just the spells that have no save? Or are we all just Bigby guys now looking for whether or not to attack against discipline or tumble? Are the arcane classes just kind of a side note? Having a really high casting stat (Int,Cha) doesn't help. With the crazy saves you can get here, the average build done correctly will own a mage. And with all the see invis daggers and ultravision casting items found in low level drops how does a mage take down a pure fighter with a million feats to get every one of his saves up and a speed bonus token too? Oh, and 5ab/5ac extra for pure fighters? Balance? There is no reason to even take Epic Mage Armor now because it will only slow you down from casting useful spells.

[Tal]

I like the stacking per level idea. The hybrids that got the full effect were a little ridiculous, but the more pure high lvl casters should get more of a bonus.

[MLoki]

I know Lokey talked to several people about them (and even those in my guild) and so with AAs I did know before it was on the change log but I'm sure others did not.

I was wondering why PWnD suddenly had a bunch of AA builds running around. gg This is a prime example why the Epic Mage Armor nerf kills casters. AAs already have a high AB and now with limited protection, a casters worst enemy (ranged combat) suddenly gets a huge boost. Perhaps adding AC from multiple sources and scaling that by caster level? This would limit the effectiveness of the hybrids and make sure its not just a huge boost of one type. ie Shield.

[Chernobyl_Glow]

Why do we need to limit the effectiveness of the hybrids? The hybrids were the only ones that actually benefitted from the previous version. Now no one but PMs do. Example:

Pure Caster with max ac and Epic Armor ~55 AC - Don't bother. If my bigby does't work I'm toast no matter what.
Tensor's build with max AB ~57 and Epic Armor ~65 AC. - Don't bother building it.
PM with 30 Summons and mix of any other stuff ~84 AC. - Sure I'll still take EMA.
Hybrid (ie. ~25 casters levels with monk/sd or monk rdd etc) - The AC will probably be in the high 60's versus mid 70's now. Probably not quite enough to keep from just getting smoked so: - Don't bother building it.

The hybrid casters were one of those builds that really sacrificed everything in order to get 75 AC. Only 1 extra Epic Feat. No real Spell Focuses. Even with Epic Spell Pen couldn't break Racial SR and certainly not Cleric SR. Basically, the only thing they had was the AC. It created a new variation in Aetheria that people were still adjusting to. They would have found a way however. Now since the AC isn't viable any longer these builds will probably be played sparingly and eventually just fade. That's a real shame cause they were very creative and unique. Apparently, anything unique gets thumped with the nerf wand. Generic overpowered 30 PM's that take 1,2 in a win or die tourney just continue on.

...

Burra and other PM's I don't mean to target PM's but I'm guessing that's what this was intended to hit but instead hurt a lot of other creative builds that weren't nearly so powerful. I mean all I had was AC and that's gone. You still have much higher AC and your awesome KD machine.

- Glow -

[Tsavong]

No you are wrong a PM with 30 PM lvls would not benefit from EMA as every PM like that I know of is caperble using a +6 shield and as the shield AC dose not stack EMA would be worthless. The same with a still spelled caster they can use a shield making EMA worthless for them too.

You only relay get benefit form EMA at this moment if you don't use a shield so the hybrid and pure casters who are not stilled are fine just with 6 less AC.

Also what is wrong with the change log do you not wish to use it any more?

[cRaZy8or5e]

No you are wrong a PM with 30 PM lvls would not benefit from EMA as every PM like that I know of is caperble using a +6 shield and as the shield AC dose not stack EMA would be worthless. The same with a still spelled caster they can use a shield making EMA worthless for them too.

You only relay get benefit form EMA at this moment if you don't use a shield so the hybrid and pure casters who are not stilled are fine just with 6 less AC.

Also what is wrong with the change log do you not wish to use it any more?

Before the nerf to EMA, 30 PM's greatly benefitted from this. If you remember Bolg didn't even put on a shield most of the time while he was fighting. Why would he need it, he had a +12 shield modifier lol. Who cares about an extra 3 AC from a tower shield. I told him to quickslot one to put on in case he got kded by a fighter or a party friendly hellball, help with damage resistance/immunities, but I don't know if he ever did.

As for the changelog, using the changelog can't be nearly as much fun. Then you spell everything out and it helps to mitigate some of the confusion that a change brings about. Making changes without announcing it is more fun, creates lots of confusion, chaos, rumors, conjecture, mass hysteria, you know dogs and cats living together, that sort of thing. I guess they think its more fun to just throw out random changes and then see what happens. Kind of like poking a hornet's nest, or damaging an ant hill.

[Korr]

Maybe wizards are supposed to be in the background slinging spells while the tanks keep the others off of you. I dont recall wizards ever supposed to be pushing the 80+ AC limit in any D&D game.

[cRaZy8or5e]

Is there even 1 pure arcane caster build that doesn't depend on just the spells that have no save? Or are we all just Bigby guys now looking for whether or not to attack against discipline or tumble? Are the arcane classes just kind of a side note? Having a really high casting stat (Int,Cha) doesn't help. With the crazy saves you can get here, the average build done correctly will own a mage. And with all the see invis daggers and ultravision casting items found in low level drops how does a mage take down a pure fighter with a million feats to get every one of his saves up and a speed bonus token too? Oh, and 5ab/5ac extra for pure fighters? Balance? There is no reason to even take Epic Mage Armor now because it will only slow you down from casting useful spells.

Conjuration/Evocation focus FTW! Well actually Divination focus is really powerful as well, Illusion, meh, harder to use, benefits defenses more than offensive spells. Necromancy? Well too much gear out there that give bonuses to death saves to really be effective. Abjuration focus goes well with anything and makes any mage that much more powerful. Transmutation and Enchantment, I don't know how they could be incorporated into the game dynamic that we have on NS4, but for the most part they're dead. I do like some of the changes they have made, it makes it so that we're not overrun by boring Evokers. Unfortunately we're seemingly being overrun by boring conjurers though. A simple conjuration focused mage with a plethora of mords can kill just about anything with a a mord then simple grease spell or NEB to slow and then spam your favorite damage spell. Most dex based builds are gonna crumple like an origami crane in a 4 year old's fist. If its a strength based toon, there are other means of exploiting their weaknesses.

The only thing out there right now that has a sure I win button against most caster builds is AA's. Why the staff decided to boost this class is beyond me. AA's are ridiculously powerful and have always been ridiculously powerful. I guess they thought cuz most people don't play them they needed to encourage their use. I guess I'm old fashioned though in that I think mages SHOULD be highly vulnerable to archers. That battle has always been one where it depends on who can do the most damage to the other first. Epic Warding is your friend there. The enhancement to death arrow, kind of neat, has hurt my feelings on a couple occasions, but its a one shot deal, so why not. I think it would be better if the AA had to invest in his charisma or intelligence to make it more powerful and not just arbitrarily receive a bonus based on levels, but that's just me. Maybe go 15 +1/2 AA lvls + charisma or intelligence mod. That would make it viable still and pretty powerful. Leave the+5 to DC for 30 AA lvl characters. The keen is really cool to have but along with the boost to deflection AC, wasn't necessary in my opinion. But w/e, I started an AA the week before the boost came out, cuz I've always wantedc to make one on this server. Felt the cheese in that class was too good to pass up. Now the cheese got really stinky and sharp and a little bit green on the edges. Just the way I like it

I don't know, just more conjecture *turns the rumor mill some more* I think the staff has a big wheel and arbitrarily spin it to see what to nerf and what to strengthen.

[frogofpeace]

Maybe wizards are supposed to be in the background slinging spells while the tanks keep the others off of you. I dont recall wizards ever supposed to be pushing the 80+ AC limit in any D&D game.

Good point. Everybody say it together.

[deathdancer]

Is there even 1 pure arcane caster build that doesn't depend on just the spells that have no save? Or are we all just Bigby guys now looking for whether or not to attack against discipline or tumble? Are the arcane classes just kind of a side note? Having a really high casting stat (Int,Cha) doesn't help. With the crazy saves you can get here, the average build done correctly will own a mage. And with all the see invis daggers and ultravision casting items found in low level drops how does a mage take down a pure fighter with a million feats to get every one of his saves up and a speed bonus token too? Oh, and 5ab/5ac extra for pure fighters? Balance? There is no reason to even take Epic Mage Armor now because it will only slow you down from casting useful spells.

Wow, a little off topic here but lets see, in Heavy armor with a tower shield and all end-game

gear your max AC is 55. So a mage with 70+ AC is balanced?

[Lokey]

That was also a willy-nilly change from 10 armor ac to 12 shield ac back in the day too 90% of ideas become unworkable once monk gets mixed in.

12 shield ac for pure caster = worthless. 12 shield ac for a variety of monk mixes = upper 70s. 12 shield ac for interesting PM = difference between being viable or not perhaps (why did I delete my rogue/pm, why?). 12 shield ac for dex pm = I already can't be hit, why should I take that (PM ac bonus is 8 at level 10)?

Also, I edited past change logs to be accurate (Beg to differ on transmutation, awesome for druid, very good for arcane...isn't as good as div, but there's some really nasty spells in that school and you can't expect everyone to have the relevant base save of 16.)

[Lokey]

I was thinking about making casters haul a shield around and get bonuses based off it (like an animated shield), code isn't bad for that, mostly copy/paste. (I'd thought about having a summon trail you that if it went so did the bonuses--what bigby hands are supposed to be lol, but that's a non-starter code-wise.)

Toying with using casting stat mod in some way. Toying with because of divine shield + sorc... This one is probably too tricky to deal with now, DMs didn't come up with anything yet either (I've been asking for a while).

Maybe someday the most effective casters won't have a 20 in their relevant casting stat

[Chernobyl_Glow]

why was monk + mage armor so bad as it was? you had some really interesting builds coming out of all the factions that could build these combos. sl, rk, ao. we're trying to be creative here and you stifle that creativity with changes. its not as if i can just say, "ok. well i'll just change some things on the builds i have". i have to scrap and start over because of 'willy-nilly' changes.

if high 70's ac is so bad why wasn't pm the first thing to get corrected? again PMs finished 1 and 2 in the thunderdome event. you had low participation in that event because most everyone on the server had the sense not to fight a pm. all i'm saying is that if high AC is the problem then how are you avoiding the 90 ac thing?

there's nothing wrong with high ac casters.

- glow -

[LinuxPup]

What's your AC now? That's what's interesting... you said it was in the upper 70s? So is it low 70s now? What about with Bard Song?