changes to Shadow dancers

[Sneakypie]

Lots of work is being done to hopefully make this thread obsolete

But will it just make HiPS obsolete entirely?

I think the anti-SD movement is quite a bit overblown. While it's true a good SD can take down lots of builds, it's also true they are useless against other builds, and all it takes PvP is one spotter in a group.

At the end of the day I think everyone's goal should be a Paper-Rock-Scissors sort of parity. If a HiPSter can kill your melee you can get a spotter which kills the HiPSter who then gets a melee which can kill your spotter so you get a HiPSter to kill his melee and so on.

The only time this is an issue IMO is if there are toons which don't have a counterpoint, and there are plenty of toons out there who can tear pretty much any HiPSter apart. The removal of hide gear at wipe solved the biggest HiPS issue IMO.

If HiPS goes on a timer you kill its usefulness and fun, especially PvM.

I sympathise with the Dev's 100% on this one, because there's no answer which will make everyone happy. All I can say is that it's my opinion that the real reason so many people detest SD's is that they are frigging annoying. I certainly don't think of them as the most unbalanced class. There are other classes which have FAR more cheeze.

[--Ashe--]

However, an SD can cover his weaknesses through queue clearing and spamming.

That is the root of the issue, right there, not that we are angry that a Hipster killed our meleer or caster or whatever. Even with a Spotter or Listen maxed character, you are going to have a challenge against a Hipster based upon the engine mechanics, not on true outcomes for skill vs. skill.

[Korr]

not to mention its an ability you can do ALOT with. If someone cant see you but every time you pop out to hit them they lay you out . . . stay hidden heal kit to full health, go back at it. Rest gets interrupted? hips and gone.

[Lokey]

Yeah, working on a fix that should scare away half our players. It's slow going.

[Sneakypie]

If hips is getting nerfed I really hope it's accompanyed by doing something nice for the Epic SD summon.

At 32 the thing is AWFUL. 17 AC, 29 AB, and the following feats:

Alertness (for a spot of 2/listen of 5)
Epic Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Epic Weapon Focus (Longsword)
Improved Critical (Greatsword)
Improved Critical (Longsword)
Overwhelming Critical (Longsword)
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Skill Focus Concentration (for a total of 5 on a non-caster)
Skill Focus Hide (total of 5 hide)
Skill Focus Listen (total of 5 listen)
Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse (His Dex is 13 points lower than his Str)
Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Weapon Focus (Longsword)
Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
Weapon Specialization (Longsword)


17 100% useless Feats, not counting the ones he got just for being fighter.

[TheEnlightened]

Cant you just add Keen Sense to true seeing so that it is posible to make non elven spoters?

Tho problem is that by default bioware true seeing makes hips useless, and the removal of bioware trueseeing makes hipesers way more powerfull that they are suposed to be in nwn... Adding Keen Sence to spot maks it posible to make great spoters of all races, not to spek of all factions....

[renarð]

Svirfneblin (gnomes subrace) also have keen senses, thus all factions can make spotter toons. Additionally, the detect mode works pretty well if you don't need to be mobile in combat (archers or some casters).

[Lorkar]

If hips is getting nerfed I really hope it's accompanyed by doing something nice for the Epic SD summon.

At 32 the thing is AWFUL. 17 AC, 29 AB, and the following feats:

Alertness (for a spot of 2/listen of 5)
Epic Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Epic Weapon Focus (Longsword)
Improved Critical (Greatsword)
Improved Critical (Longsword)
Overwhelming Critical (Longsword)
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Skill Focus Concentration (for a total of 5 on a non-caster)
Skill Focus Hide (total of 5 hide)
Skill Focus Listen (total of 5 listen)
Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse (His Dex is 13 points lower than his Str)
Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Weapon Focus (Longsword)
Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
Weapon Specialization (Longsword)


17 100% useless Feats, not counting the ones he got just for being fighter.

QFT.

It is worse than useless, unless all you are using it for is bait in order to get away.

[TheEnlightened]

Svirfneblin (gnomes subrace) also have keen senses, thus all factions can make spotter toons.

I stand corrected, looking at Svirfneblin I relize that it is actualy an exelent class for a spoter...

Additionally, the detect mode works pretty well if you don't need to be mobile in combat (archers or some casters).

1. It dos nothing of the sorts... Detect mode is not disabeled by walking but by atacking, even with a bow
2. There is -NO- susch thing as not needing to be mobile in combat

[Korr]

At best 1 v 1 against a hipser and you dont have keen senses you MASH the detect mode button to get the inbetween combat phases shot off, but by the time it gets turned on the next combat phase starts with the SD swinging at you. Then he hipses again and your mashing of the button has done nothing.

[disastro]

Lots of work is being done to hopefully make this thread obsolete

But will it just make HiPS obsolete entirely?

I think the anti-SD movement is quite a bit overblown. While it's true a good SD can take down lots of builds, it's also true they are useless against other builds, and all it takes PvP is one spotter in a group.

i have to say statements like these are part of the problem. if a spotter completely annihilates your build, then your skills as a player and builder leave much to be desired. if all that keeps you alive is one skill from one level of one class (that abuses a game mechanic), then you have much to learn.

most hipsers have 35 levels of some other class to lean on. build and play so you dont get instapunked as soon as a spot elf walks in the door. its much more fun that way! if you cant play without invulnerability, you can't play.

ive fought against some truly great hipsers, even with a spot build i had problems with them and it was a duel. why? because they were flexible and adapted and fell back on some real nasty tricks that didnt involve hips. my multiclass sorc doesnt become useless when faced with high SR builds, and my weapon master doesnt become useless against crit immunes.

The only time this is an issue IMO is if there are toons which don't have a counterpoint, and there are plenty of toons out there who can tear pretty much any HiPSter apart. The removal of hide gear at wipe solved the biggest HiPS issue IMO.

+hide reduction went a long way. but you can still get 120 hide more easily than you can get 120 spot, which is not far from where we were before.

If HiPS goes on a timer you kill its usefulness and fun, especially PvM.

absolutely NOT! hips on a timer gives you a very powerful tool in your belt (still easily one of the best melee combat abilities without question). it just won't be the ONLY tool in your belt.

[renarð]

Guess I should have been more clear.

From Bioware...


Quote: Posted 02/24/07 20:38 (GMT) by Brenon Holmes

Nope, you're correct. There's actually a third mode... it's a "passive active" mode . It's activated when you're standing still, so you get the benefits of being in active mode when not moving.


Quote: Posted 02/25/07 02:26 (GMT) by Gridz

Does "passive active" mode function exactly as Active Mode does (minus the movement penalty, for obvious reasons)? In other words, are there any differences between how Passive Active and Active Mode function other than the need to be still and the movement rate penalty?

Passive Active and Active modes work exactly the same.

[Sneakypie]

Lots of work is being done to hopefully make this thread obsolete

But will it just make HiPS obsolete entirely?

I think the anti-SD movement is quite a bit overblown. While it's true a good SD can take down lots of builds, it's also true they are useless against other builds, and all it takes PvP is one spotter in a group.

i have to say statements like these are part of the problem. if a spotter completely annihilates your build, then your skills as a player and builder leave much to be desired. if all that keeps you alive is one skill from one level of one class (that abuses a game mechanic), then you have much to learn.

most hipsers have 35 levels of some other class to lean on. build and play so you dont get instapunked as soon as a spot elf walks in the door. its much more fun that way! if you cant play without invulnerability, you can't play.

ive fought against some truly great hipsers, even with a spot build i had problems with them and it was a duel. why? because they were flexible and adapted and fell back on some real nasty tricks that didnt involve hips. my multiclass sorc doesnt become useless when faced with high SR builds, and my weapon master doesnt become useless against crit immunes.

Maybe I should rephrase. My HiPSter for example is mostly rogue, hence I've never once managed to take down a DwD with spot and UMD. There are toons who trump other toons.

I'm not saying that putting hips on a timer makes a hider useless, I'm saying it makes hips more or less useless. My 40 SD is mostly rogue with some monk thrown in, has good ac, epic dodge, crip strike, lots of attacks etc and tho not built as a pvp toon, holds his own.

Having said that, since he's not ghostwise and not 30SD (which is the build this will really screw over), even with max dex, 5 feats, very good gear, and UMD, his hide of 100 is easily overcame, a good spotter can get 125 spot which on a 20 could spot someone with a hide of 145. Not even close to possible on a toon with 5 SD. That means that the way I use him against monsters (hips with 3 attacks between) becomes useless pvp against spotters, which means that 1 on 1 my 29 levels of rogue give me no sneak attack damage w/o hips. A timer won't make the toon completely useless, but it changes it from my favorite fun solo toon to one much better suited to a support role. Pretty nasty hit on the ECL3 toon I spent a couple months building around HiPS.

Hide/MS has already been nerfed by item removal. SD's are further restricted by making only very specific race/class combinations capable of hide that actually requires a roll for a spotter to overcome. So already you can't be any race but one and have a good hide, and you can't be any build besides heavy SD and have a good hide.

While not a nerf, I also want to point out what I mentioned in another thread, which is that the Epic SD Summon is built impossibly poorly to the point of uselessness. Yet another thing that could allow SD's a measure of usefulness beyond HiPS is instead a joke.

All those nerfs, restrictions, and annoyances are accepted because HiPS is powerful enough. Nerfing HiPS on top of all the other nerfs just feels a bit like piling it on to me.

[Bargeld]

A timer won't make the toon completely useless, but it changes it from my favorite fun solo toon to one much better suited to a support role.

Not meaning to flame, but I find this outrageous... they haven't implemented a change yet and you haven't even gotta to actually PLAY with a change. This is all conceptual and goes to prove the point that players hate concepts more than actual gameplay. For all you know it could actually work out better for you.

[Korr]

Sounds like Sneaky wasnt a pre nerf shifter ';P

As for specific race/class combos? Thats ridiculous!

Elf for keen senses and higher dex, therefor higher hide. Not to mention automatic proficiency with rapier and longbow and longsword . . . with bonus spot/listen.

Halfling/Gnome for the bonus small hide, and possibly a dex boost (keen senses on a svirf too).

Tiefling get dex and int (more and more hide) and ALSO get a hide/ms bonus.

Thats top 3 things off my head, Im sure I could dig up more. At one point I was going to make an aasimar SD, but when I let lokey in on the joke of being able to hide and reduce other peoples hide that aura started effecting the aasimar himself (as it should ';P).