changes to Shadow dancers

[Fezz]

Posted this in a spot vs listen thread a cpl years back here it is again for you all to see how hips acyually works


The following info is hard coded behind the scenes stuff no one ever sees :

Passive (default) mode
Trap detection radius: 5ft
Trap detection rate: 6 seconds (every round)
Trap detection roll: d20 + half skill (possible bug after 1.68 giving full skill)
Spot/Listen roll: d10 + half skill

Active (Detect) mode
Trap detection radius: 10ft
Trap detection rate: 3 seconds (twice per round)
Trap detection roll: d20 + full skill
Spot/Listen roll: d20 + full skill

Stealth checks
Player detects stealth: 5 times per second
Player rolls for hide/move silently/spot/listen: 6 seconds
NPC detects stealth: 4 seconds
NPC rolls for hide/move silently/spot/listen: 6 seconds

Now here comes the interesting stuff lacking in the game docs -

Listen/Move Silently:

* Automatically cannot detect silenced creatures
* Can only detect invisible (or when you're blind) creatures within the max attack range.
* Cannot hear sanctuaried creatures
* If there is something between you and the target (including creatures) there's a modifier of +5 DC for every 40cm of thickness in outdoor areas
* In indoor areas, if the LOS is blocked and the target is within 4 tiles (dfs search) there's a modifier of +2 DC
* Area listen check modifiers
* +10 DC if you are in combat
* +5 DC if the target is standing still
* -5 DC if you are standing still
* +1 DC for every 3 meters of distance to the target
* Relative size modifiers (Tiny: +8, Small: +4, Medium: 0, Large: -4, Huge: -8)
* Favoured enemy bonuses

Spot/Hide In Shadows:

* Automatically cannot detect invisible creatures
* Automatically cannot detect anything while blinded
* Area spot check modifiers
* During Night, if you do not have a light on you (including weapon lights and darkvision) there is a +5 DC modifier
* During Night, if the target has a light on them, there is a -10 DC modifier
* For stealthed players only, there is a +5 DC if they are in the back arc
* +10 DC if you are in combat
* +5 DC if the target is standing still
* -5 DC if you are standing still
* Relative size modifiers (Tiny: +8, Small: +4, Medium: 0, Large: -4, Huge: -8)
* Favoured enemy bonuses


Listen Check DCs to Detect Invisible Creatures

Invisible Creature Is . . . DC
In combat or speaking 0
Moving at half speed Move silently check result
Moving at full speed Move silently check result –4
Running or charging Move silently check result –20
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door) +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15

[Fezz]

Some very interesting stuff in there.

Like for all you Bard / listeners every 3 feet of distance basically gives the hipser a +1 MS.

And most weapons people carry have a light on them so during night hours on any map the hipser is costing himself 10 hide quick grab a sling ! But the spotter is avoiding the -5 to dc for being in the dark.

Anyway hope this clears some stuff up for you all.

[cRaZy8or5e]

I liked it better when people either had to dig for that info in the bioware forums, or just plain didn't know.

[Chernobyl_Glow]

So. My Aasimar has a spot of 98 +the fabuous aura. I don't have keen senses but use detect mode consistently. During a entire battle against just one SD in plain daylight he is 100% successful at attacking on sneak and HIPS right in front of me and walk away. Isn't the proper way for me to play to attack then immediately press Detect (once)?

FYI. Once he felt like he was at a safe distance he would try and HIPS 1 time and walk a circle around me to get on a flank. I could "see" him do this frequently. And when I'd pursue, he'd start spamming again and I'd lose focus. Also, since detect slows me, don't I have to remove it to "catch" him? <--- value of Keen Senses.

...

HIPSers gain a lot of synergies in their builds that make them very cool and fun builds. Hide and MS are dex skills so basiclly you can build a one stat character (understood others are important). You gain AC/AB and primary skill from one stat. The only other build I can think of capable of that is a Zen Archery Cleric/Monk/Spot Class using Wisdom. To build a wisdom based Bard to "see" (or hear) will be very hard. The Curse helps but the song and divination focuses are redundant. These are probably the best two options.

So contrary to a HIPSer boosting Dex in order to Hide/MS better, a zemesis build has to sacrifice something in order to pump Wisdom in order to see them this generally results in a lot of sacrifice for the character. Yes an SD has to make sacrifices too like Fort etc. However, an SD can cover his weaknesses through queue clearing and spamming. The spotter has no way to cover his weaknesses. The SD can level easier or even solo using his skill. This in contrast to most Spotters who are worthless against almost everything BUT SD's. This is why it's harder to build a Spotter.

- Glow -

[VagaStorm]

I had an aasimar spoter prewipe, Reaper, and it is wery hard to time detect mode, especially since it's not a free action. Generally, I hit detectmode as soon as anyone hipsed, and sometimes I could get em, but unless I could get a kd or a double crit or something of, they would almost always get away.

[Korr]

Well one of the good things about the detect mode is that if you use it and can see someone . . . you can turn it off and you will stil see them. Though generally its dead obvious when youve spotted them at this point (not moving slow) so they can re hips and run again.

[Bargeld]

w00t back from vacation! I've missed out on some good stuff.

My old cleric (pre-wipe; Hervorrufung) imploded Vindur because she was an evoker pure cleric round lvl 35, DC 43 or so. My new cleric (Sentinel) can only implode a severly fort-lacking toon (DC 31 or so). I usually don't even bother unless I'm out of everything else, or just plain frustrated.

Laufer is 29 monk atm (will be 30), 4 pre-epic fighter, has racial SR, cross class spellcraft, and is a Svirf. His spellcraft was lower pre-wipe, cuz I only had enuf skill points for 5. But with an MA crafted belt and natural fort + void stone ammie, he was pretty unimplodedable in PvP... at least it seemed that way. But anyone who's seen him fight knows how absolutely poor his damage is. One of the reason is because he wields a Skull Reaver, but that also allows me to hide with a bit more laziness (glimmerblade gives -10 hide and a reaver doesnt ).

I want to dig something up that I pointed out in previous SD discussion also:

The spamming issue seems to be the problem, so I would like some clarification on my experience. I'm not sure if how i play is considered 'spamming' hips. When I use it selectively, meaning that I hover the Fkey and use it when I want to hide... using it ONLY enough times to actually hide. (this is tough to explain but easy to show in-game) here is an example battle:

1) start hipsed
2) attack target
3) after 1st phase of combat (first set of attacks, not the full round) click away from target
4) hips 1x

... (read the FULL 7 page Hips discussion, with all the same people here)

Which brings us to what I think is the true instance of 'hips spamming.' I would imagine that a lot of SD players don't want to deal with paying attention to their status and have found the easy solution, which is simply to spam the Fkey as though you were queuing up KDs. I have tried this technique 3 or 4 times and it annoys the crap out of me to do it. On the other hand, I was able to CRAWL away from 4 or 5 LA toons chasing me, while using this method when encumbered. They caught me at the first zone transistion before I could begin the cycle in the new zone. THIS is hips spamming. THIS shoudl be fixed. THIS is a lame way of playing an SD.

So there are actually 3 distinct aspects at play here:

1) Hips is considered a free action, meaning that it can be executed on demand, in mid-round.
2) Hips allows a player to clear the targeter's queue, IF that person fails a spot/listen check.
3) Spamming' Hips allows an SD to force spotters to reroll their spot/listen. (Does this happen more often than the game engine supports the ability to spot it?)

I shouldn't do it, but I'll give all you clerics out there a little tip: aim for the ground, not the toon. Implode is AoE, albeit smaller than most. In return for that tidbit, you aren't allowed to use 'clears the queue on my implode' as an excuse.

[Chernobyl_Glow]

Aiming for the ground with an Implode is a tactic we already use. The area of effect is pretty small though and gives the Hipser a chance to evade that really shouldn't be awarded. I appreciate you candor also but really this recommendation truly is an idication that something needs to be fixed.

As far as the 3 concerns you listed you are exactly right. Those three things are what I have a concern about. Not whether its hard to build a spotter. Not whether there should be more spot gear. If just one of your three listed problems could be fixed it would give spotters/hearerers a fair chance.

- Glow -

[cRaZy8or5e]

2) Hips allows a player to clear the targeter's queue, IF that person fails a spot/listen check.

I shouldn't do it, but I'll give all you clerics out there a little tip: aim for the ground, not the toon. Implode is AoE, albeit smaller than most. In return for that tidbit, you aren't allowed to use 'clears the queue on my implode' as an excuse.

Read number 2, then check you're queue clearing comment. Failing this check has interrupted me casting heal on myself. Very annoying stuff.

Personally I never cared if they change HiPSer, fix it, leave it alone, whatever. However, there are a lot of misconceptions floating around this thread, and I wanted to make sure that people don't get the wrong information.

[Korr]

Detect mode can be used mid combat as well, while this doesnt help you much 1 on 1 with hipsers it adds what you can do with hipsers around in general. If youre fighting someone else you can hit detect mode between the different sequences in a combat round. This however will only let you see the hipser, youre still stuck having to wait for the next round to be able to attack him.

[disastro]

Detect mode can be used mid combat as well, while this doesnt help you much 1 on 1 with hipsers it adds what you can do with hipsers around in general. If youre fighting someone else you can hit detect mode between the different sequences in a combat round. This however will only let you see the hipser, youre still stuck having to wait for the next round to be able to attack him.

it doesnt really help. was fighting a hipser earlier today that i could see plain as day thru listen + keen senses. bow was unusable.. i would sit there clicking forever and nothing would fire. it was very easy to tell when hips was being spammed, he became invulnerable to melee or targetting spells even though i could see him 100% of the time. other times i was able to attack and kd etc. while he was moving around. targetting the ground nearby with igms didndt work either... casting would start but the spell would disappear after another hips hit.

basically once hips is hit, even if you can see the guy, you have to wait until next round to do anything. party friendly aoe is all you can do (which is quite effective).

for what its worth it does seem like you can still get 120+ hide, so the counter is still wis based spellcasting toon.

[Korr]

I wouldnt contest the 120+ hide, if you really tried you could pull 130+ if it werent for the 50 magical cap on skills.

[Bargeld]

Read number 2, then check you're queue clearing comment. Failing this check has interrupted me casting heal on myself. Very annoying stuff.

Agreed that this can be frustrating and should be listed as another 'engine bug'. But, from what I understand of your description, you queu contains 2 actions (or more): Attack icon, and then your queued self-heal. What I believe is happening is the SD is clearing your attack action, which is targeted on them, which, in-turn, clears any and all subsiquent actions. I believe the solution to this was mentioned previously... click to the ground, which will clear your attack action, then try your heal.

Personally, I wouldn't put this on the 'bugs' with SD, but in the stupidity of the game engine, which *should* clear your actions against the SD target, but leave your self-targeted actions to be completed. Very grey area imo.

[Korr]

Like when everyone moaned about the fact joining and leaving party cleared buffing ques . . . and bioware said they fixed it so that any non-hostile action doenst get cleared for joining/leaving party. But, but . . . wait it didnt work.

[LinuxPup]

Lots of work is being done to hopefully make this thread obsolete