changes to Shadow dancers

[Anelad]

How many ways are there to defeat hipsers?
build Aasimar, use any class you want, for example COT, you dont even need to pick epic skill focus on spot/listen.
build a pure barbarian, use bloody roar when they get close.
build a wiz or sor, use wail of banshee.
build a imploder, pure Cleric or Cleric/COT.
build a bard/AA, ask eldaquen about its performance.
Of course I cant cover all builds here, this's just a short list.
Are they sux except vs hipser?If you do take hipsers into consideration when you building, its not hard to see them.If you dont, that's your problem.BTW, I know a wiz, he doesnt use wail of banshee when facing hipser, he uses bow and time stop!
So, build better, play better, and dont whine.

You're "short list" of HiPSer killers only kill badly built HiPSers. Well cept for Elda's Bard/AA. That was a decent HiPSer killer, but the rest of your so called builds are sadly lacking. It's not your fault really, you just haven't gone up against good HiPSers . Oh and bow and time stop don't work anymore, unless they changed timestop so you can do damage during its duration again.

And all of those builds will have their actions cleared by a HiPSer, its a fault of the engine.

Ok, since you have gone up against good HiPSers, I'm sure you know what hide/ms a good HiPSer should have.
For Aasimar COT , take gears into consideration, if you reach 80 spot, you can spot HiPSers.
For Pure barbarian, have you seen any "good HiPSer " can overcome 48 will save DC and can survive after stunned for serval rounds?
For wiz, remeber that not all hipsers are monk/sd. Many spells work, just DONT use time stop for running.
For imploder, a decent cleric/COT can reach 50 DC, dont ask me how to build.
For bard/AA, ask elda.

BTW, dont make assumption such as "you just haven't gone up against good HiPSers ".You can list some "good HiPSers " here, and I can tell you their weakness.

[Anelad]

build Aasimar, use any class you want, for example COT, you dont even need to pick epic skill focus on spot/listen.
build a pure barbarian, use bloody roar when they get close.

Do once and your general hipser learn to use a bow, problem solved....

OK, for Aasimar lets step by step,
1)a hipser makes a sneak attack
2)he shows his position
3)you target him,
4)he start to run,
5)you see his moving direction and follow him,
6)he hides, so become slow, and he's within the aura since you keep following
7)you see him and attack. This is a loop, back to step 4)

oh, wait, you included pure barbarian, you mean a hipser can overcome 48 will DC, or you mean one can use bow when stunned?

build a wiz or sor, use wail of banshee.
build a imploder, pure Cleric or Cleric/COT.

Spam hips, and it will be hard to get even one off.... For implode you need to know where the hipser is. For wail, use silence...

What we are left with is the bard aa, which is not a wery good spoter without true seeing. How ever it is prety easy to get a sorc/aa to about 120 spot, and doable to get 127 if you realy put your hart to it

again, in stealthy mode, hipsers cant move that fast, imploding is an easy task.
silence?kidding? you use silence you show your position.
a wery good spoter without true seeing?GIVE ME A REASON WHY A BARD/AA DOESN'T USE TRUE SEEING.
BTW, I'm not talking about one cant reach high spot/listen, I'm talking about there're many toons can deal with hipser and not sux in other enviorments.So I dont think sorc/aa is a good build except facing hipser.

[Anelad]

Any good SD will be pretty close to immune to implode or wail. And like I think was said already, clearing the action que is the problem. . . not having enough spot to see them is not the problem.

oh, immunity, really?pls build one

[Lokey]

ANY toon with spot and required casting ability:
42 or 43 skill point dump
10 epic focus
30 from truesight and c/c (non-focus)
7 from gear (easy to get)
A few more from nat wisdom + gear

This gets you to roughly 90-95 spot with 1 epic feat.

Divination focus nets you 20 more spot, getting you to 110-115.

This is supposed to be difficult to do?

So you still can't see a decent SD even after Linux's nerf and all the above? (I think I can squeeze div might into his HiPS build...)

Spot as class skill: arcane archer, assassin, champion of Torm, dwarven defender (what?!?), red dragon disciple, shadowdancer, ranger, rogue, shifter, weapon master...nearly all PrCs.

If cross-class spot, epic focus is your level 39 feat. Depending on build, that might be a huge sacrifice.

CA/CV _and_ True Sight is knowledge cleric or arcane, CA/CV is round/level duration and not a from scroll option because of that. Arcane + divination focus has some nice PvP options, but I wouldn't want to load up in wis or attempt high level PvM with it (take epic will and pray a lot, also take great + epic fort and pray a lot more about that). Granted hider doesn't have a lot of high level PvM use either...

So in sum, there shouldn't be any perfect build that covers everything (besides CoT lol). I think with gear, it's harder to make a decent anti-HiPSer than one that uses HiPS...(dropped level 30 items I can think of +16ish each with decent stats for what you'd want on that piece of equip. Add say 25 ranks each to hide/move silent plus some dex focus, and you're reasonably safe, just mind someone with keen senses, Aasimars, bards and the occasional opposed roll really not in your favor. Leaves plenty of room for the actual do stuff part of the build, but will probably be worth your PrC class slot.)

Also I can't remember the last time I saw a PC die to a save or die spell from another PC. Someone get a screencap.

ETA things I've been thinking about building lately: Spotter druid (either c/c or shifter 5 though that hurts...doubt it would do well, no way it could have a self-speed boost and spot was pointless to take on my halfling-druid who otherwise rocks). Pali/SD (yeah, I'm thinking of going there). Probably something ranger. I do miss my beloved halfogres though. Maybe halfogre pali/SD (no tomes, I need to stop using the things. +4 stats and some really zealous deleveling can make some somewhat broken things, we accept that.)

[Fezz]

No screen cap but funny enough umaga my monk had 58 SR and died to an implode from merlando. Corse next time i some how stunned him and beat his but !! lol 2 great fights right there, though his victory was mortal combat style "flawless" hehehe. However it is true not seeing much wail of the banshee or even implode stuff in pvp no more, funny that.

[disastro]

as has been stated before the situation is far better now, but i havent really seen enough top shelf sd action to be sure. biggest fixes to the situation were bard song, camo/mass camo and ghostwise token.

aneld you are a bit lacking in experience fighting sds and on how things on this server work, i suggest you read up a bit on how time stop works here and what is meant by action queue clearing (and its effect on targetted spells like implosion, which is not an AoE on this server). def check out the changelog, its a long read but probably the absolute best resource for the game.

[BlkMamba]

I have a WM that set to get sd's
i took it into consideration, have the spot
have the support, and can see sd's many of times
sometimes i get them, sometimes they get me
all are good fights, BUT....

One thing i have noticed, is the spamming of HIPS
to get the numbers in there favor
as i dont see them all the time
but only some of the time, they will spam HIPS
repeatedly until they get the numbers in there favor

As we know this game has alot to do with luck
should sd's be allowed to spam HIPS until they get
the numbers in there favor should be the question

You dont need a ton of wisdom to see them
and you shouldnt ALL the time unless there just a bad build for a SD
but when you do have them spotted should they just be able
to spam it 10x's within 5 seconds untill luck of the draw is in there
favor clearing your que everytime? Guess thats my only beef with SD's

And again, Great job on the server

Mamba...

[Korr]

Easy and simple here . . .

Monk (19) / Paladin (5) / Shadowdancer (16)

16 monk and 4 paladin pre-epic
divine might for some extra damage

(44) Fort = 24(base) + 5 (con easy to get) + 7 (cha min for div might) + 3 (random items) + 5 (easy to get 4-5 from feats)

44 - 3 (difference between pally good and pally low saves) = 41 Will

With a maximum DC of any spell being 48. . . youre not looking bad without even coming close to a min/max situation for saves.

Yes 48 is max since you stated easy to get 50 DC implode I will show you the max calc.

20 (base stat) + 10 (levels) + 10 (great wisdom) + 4 (book) = 44 + 12 (max magical) = 56 (23 ability modifier)

Spell DC = 10 (base) + 9 (spell level) + 6 (epic focus) + 23 (ability mod) = 48

Thats a simple, off the top of my head build that could get epic dodge, good speed, +6 hide/ms from SD levels alone, divine damage, maybe a horsey some day, spot, listen, hide, move silent.


Anything else I have to spell out to you Anelad?

[Chernobyl_Glow]

Well put mamba. all this talk of builds and counters and gear etc. all that stuff is fine. the spamming to the point of queue clearing is the problem. (negating an automatic implode) and leaving a a fighter not fighting even though he sees them still... its not the way it was supposed to work.

Analead. FYI the Aasimar aura is very small considering all the places that an SD could be. Further, since you've had your queue cleared and are standing flatfooted an SD will still get a sneak off against you because you're walking around in slow circles trying to find him. I think it takes a round to apply the penalty so it really doesn't help you prevent the sneak. basically, as an aasimar (built a few) just like every other race, you'll need to be able to spot with out the aura in order to succeed. They'll almost always be outside of the aura quick.

As for the Pure Barbarian or Pure Fighter the problem is the amount of time that it takes to activate the token. Even if you wait until they attack you and activate immediately the challenge is that it waits to the beginning of the next round then takes one full round or some such. If the hIPser knows the token is coming they can escape the radius of effect. 2nd point is, what if you're facing two Hipsers? Once your token is spent you might as well get sent to the respawn point so you can rest - lol.

Nice build Korr but I'll Beat That with A Wisdom based Bard!! That'll work. That's what I'm gonna build! I'll dominate! YA! hehe. And sure this topic has been hashed tons of times. But... isn't it fun to hash it? Each and everytime!! Good discussion guys. Take care,

- Glow -

[cRaZy8or5e]

Anelad this post is for you. I'll try and spell things out for you.

My 45 DC imploder Menelandro (wild elf) can get a listen score of 123 with someone to aid on buffs, so yeah I know how to spot and sometimes kill/harass HiPSers.

I love you people trying to build Aasimar spotters, I'm sure Mental loves the idea as well. Vindur will eat all of you alive. Or nogaivin's rog/mk/sd, or good ol' Silas. Those are good sd's. Please I dare you to do a non-keen senses build to spot people. It doesn't work, not because you can't spot them, but because they way the engine works, where they hit HiPS, first you lose the initiative cuz unless they're a really bad sneak with bad gear, you'll have to go into detect mode. Any good player will take advantage of that spamming in and out of HiPS faster then you can keep up with detect mode.

But more importantly, whenever they HiPS even if for some reason you can spot them, it will clear your action queue.Just the way it goes. Snake IO has hit his HiPS while I'm trying to cast a heal on myself an action not even concerned with him and it has interrupted me. Talk about frustrating. I don't care how good at hiding they are, yes you can build to spot them.

But the action interrupt issue is the problem.

Edit: Fezz that was a lot of fun trying to get away from you guys. Hopefully Umaga is still the low level that he was then, or I may not do even as well as I did then.

[disastro]

But more importantly, whenever they HiPS even if for some reason you can spot them, it will clear your action queue.Just the way it goes. Snake IO has hit his HiPS while I'm trying to cast a heal on myself an action not even concerned with him and it has interrupted me. Talk about frustrating. I don't care how good at hiding they are, yes you can build to spot them.

that can happen if you're attacking ranged and then try to cast on yourself/somebody else. its briefly queued and a hips can wreck it. i generally get around that by clicking on the ground somewhere nearby to get myself out of targetted attack mode, then hitting the spell i want.

and yes, aasamir spotters are laughable

edit: mamba its good to hear your sd spotter is competitive with the right support. thats a far sight better than it used to be. lets see what happens when people dust off their uber sd builds

[Korr]

Rex has a spot that can beat any hipser Ive seen. He is an aasimar sothe aura is icing on the cake. He still has problems due to action clearing and lack of keen senses

[Anelad]

as has been stated before the situation is far better now, but i havent really seen enough top shelf sd action to be sure. biggest fixes to the situation were bard song, camo/mass camo and ghostwise token.

aneld you are a bit lacking in experience fighting sds and on how things on this server work, i suggest you read up a bit on how time stop works here and what is meant by action queue clearing (and its effect on targetted spells like implosion, which is not an AoE on this server). def check out the changelog, its a long read but probably the absolute best resource for the game.

heh, why you interested in time stop?ok, I'm noob, and you know everything, just list the name of the sds you've successfully defeated, and let us see what experience you have.

[Anelad]

Anelad this post is for you. I'll try and spell things out for you.

My 45 DC imploder Menelandro (wild elf) can get a listen score of 123 with someone to aid on buffs, so yeah I know how to spot and sometimes kill/harass HiPSers.

I love you people trying to build Aasimar spotters, I'm sure Mental loves the idea as well. Vindur will eat all of you alive. Or nogaivin's rog/mk/sd, or good ol' Silas. Those are good sd's. Please I dare you to do a non-keen senses build to spot people. It doesn't work, not because you can't spot them, but because they way the engine works, where they hit HiPS, first you lose the initiative cuz unless they're a really bad sneak with bad gear, you'll have to go into detect mode. Any good player will take advantage of that spamming in and out of HiPS faster then you can keep up with detect mode.

But more importantly, whenever they HiPS even if for some reason you can spot them, it will clear your action queue.Just the way it goes. Snake IO has hit his HiPS while I'm trying to cast a heal on myself an action not even concerned with him and it has interrupted me. Talk about frustrating. I don't care how good at hiding they are, yes you can build to spot them.

But the action interrupt issue is the problem.

Edit: Fezz that was a lot of fun trying to get away from you guys. Hopefully Umaga is still the low level that he was then, or I may not do even as well as I did then.

I saw you imploded Laufer, and I think its much easier for you to implode mental's vindur and nog's MaeVar (oh sry you cant, they got deleted).

[Anelad]

Easy and simple here . . .

Monk (19) / Paladin (5) / Shadowdancer (16)

16 monk and 4 paladin pre-epic
divine might for some extra damage

(44) Fort = 24(base) + 5 (con easy to get) + 7 (cha min for div might) + 3 (random items) + 5 (easy to get 4-5 from feats)

44 - 3 (difference between pally good and pally low saves) = 41 Will

With a maximum DC of any spell being 48. . . youre not looking bad without even coming close to a min/max situation for saves.

Yes 48 is max since you stated easy to get 50 DC implode I will show you the max calc.

20 (base stat) + 10 (levels) + 10 (great wisdom) + 4 (book) = 44 + 12 (max magical) = 56 (23 ability modifier)

Spell DC = 10 (base) + 9 (spell level) + 6 (epic focus) + 23 (ability mod) = 48

Thats a simple, off the top of my head build that could get epic dodge, good speed, +6 hide/ms from SD levels alone, divine damage, maybe a horsey some day, spot, listen, hide, move silent.


Anything else I have to spell out to you Anelad?

ok, I choose drow for you, so begin with 14 str , since you want divine might, 18 (final 28)dex ,the more the better, 10 con/10 wis/12(10+2)int/16 (14+2)cha
and here's a feat list
Dodge, Mobility, stealthy, Power Attack, Divine Might, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Blind Fight, Skill focus (move silently), Epic Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Epic Fortifide, Epic Will, Blinding Speed, Epic Skill Focus (hide), Epic Skill Focus (move silently), skill focus (hide), Epic Dodge
of course you can change them, post your final result, and then we can discuss.