changes to Shadow dancers

[Azeel3]

I hear a lot of talk about maybe some changes will be made to Shadow dancers. If so what about just doing them like bards that when they use their Shadow dancing ability its like bard song, one per level of class in that field. So they could still spam them, but they only get so many a day. Then the true Sd's will devote more than 5 levels to the class and play them a lot closer to the vest. Cause if you only have 5 spams a day before rest you're not doing a lot of hiding, and if they are hiding they aren't causing a lot of other problems for what its worth.
-The Sandman of PWnD

[Alkapwn]

it really would make them useless. Its not hard to build a counter to 95% of all hips builds.
And what would happen to regular hiders who dont use hips? It would seriously destroy the usefullness of the skill set and ruin alot of builds. I just think any move into more nerfing of hiders since wipe would serverly weaken the class. Admitedly they're a big pain in pvp but very easily countered with the right build.

[disastro]

sd issues have been beaten to death in various older threads, but the upshot is that hips is a hardcoded ability that the devs can not modify (short of a client side hak which will never happen here).

things have gotten better since the wipe as many of the +hide spells and items have been removed or changed (so its a little harder to make an unseeable hipser). ideally there would be as many +spot/listen items as there are +hide but the situation thus far is an improvement.

bottom line: build for spot (not listen!) and deal.

[Bargeld]

It's actually much easier to spot than to hide now. There are a FEW items for hide/ms that don't have a spot/listen counterpart (robes & cloak). You get much more spot/listen from the available detection spells and gear than you do from hide/ms gear and abilities. Building a spotter is easier than building an SD! Spotters get all their detection buffs from raw spells, class abilities, and spell focus feats, which you get through natural progression. In order to make a good hider, you need at least 3 pieces of high level gear (30+ group required to obtain.)

[LinuxPup]

As has been mentioned before... just so everyone knows, currently there's no good way of intercepting calls to Stealth Mode... so as a developer, script-wise, there's no way for me to know when a player his engaging/disengaging Stealth Mode. It's not that the staff has refused to nerf/fix HiPS, it's that we're incapable of doing so (without a hak). That said, there is some work on an events plugin by another group that would allow us to intercept this stuff over the wire, giving us the ability to tie events to such things without using a hak...

The staff is very, very, very well aware that HiPS is terribly broken (and always has been). We had some other solutions to help balance it, but I think waiting for an events plugin would be the best, cleanest, and coolest way of solving the problem. We could do timeouts after using HiPS, among other cool things.

[Cijah]

I don't see why shadowdancers are an issue when you consider that if they're so good and so uber in pvp why there are not 20 on at any one time. The simple fact is they're not that good that they even deserve a nervous nerf glance. Even in the days of Pielo and a long time before, they weren't a problem. Sure there was some game stability issues with spamming but that was a technical failing which was largely corrected with bug fixes and not a build issue.

So many classes which are receiving flak are the least played on the server! Let's get real. Why not ban Cleric/Figher/Rogue 29/6/5 builds - i hate them with a passion and nearly everyone has one. Oh and don't get me started about those wizards - 40 levels that's way too many I reckon restrict them at 20 and no more - sounds ridiculous and annoying doesn't it? Kind of whiny and childish and that's what we have so much of. When was the last time you saw a rogue with more than 20 levels? Are we going to jump on the "I hate crippling strike" bandwagon.

It's a G A M E! A strategic, balancing act of rock paper scissors and they're is no better way to play than to build smart and build specific (if that's your thing) or build for fun and play what you want seeing as it's your valuable time. As in all cases respect the rules of the server and each other and we will all get along splendidly. Be a pain in the rectum and expect an ear-bashing on shout (in game) or on the boards.

Linuxpup's and Lokey's time is like rarefied air at the moment - let these guys get on with important things .. like AO jobs lol!

Sorry linux i had to add that - i'd love to help. I sent ideas in years ago for jobs but I'm no scripting guru like you

[Nyeleni]

SL is crawling with SDs. And yes spamming hips is an issue. Sorry if I disagree with you Cijah.

[Fezz]

Well seems that as soon as this 3rd party thing is ready it will be implemented in NS4 with a timer between hipsings.

As far a spaming it goes, i really do not have a problem with it any more since the "oh look im crashing again from the hips spammer" thing is fixed. But yes they are annoying because a heck of a lot of toons have neither spot nor listen and you basically die.

There are many things like this in this game. As far as hips vs spot or listen and how much hide you can get on items vs spot etc, I loved the old days when Shadowdancers fell like they had been shot - dragons had true true sight or that guy (i forget now) and his awesome epic DR 3 truesight rak shape raiding LA.

Still as ppl always say, nothing is unbeatable and everything has some weak point. It is silly to build 1 cahracter and expect it to be able to beat everyone elses no matter which builds ALL of the time. I have had some success with my lvl 35 barbarian roar nocking SD's out of hips while i smash them to death very fast, he has 0 spot and 0 listen. There are ways around almost everything - except lvl 40 blinding speed dragons lol jokes

[Chernobyl_Glow]

my friend is building a Hipsing Dragon Cleric!!... just kidding.

should start by saying thanks to Linux and Lokey for continuing to try and find solutions for this as opposed to just accepting it. i do not consider it an "upshot" that hips is a hardcoded ability that the devs can not modify it. thanks for finding a way.

my thought is that if, as a SD, you want to hide and get a free sneak attack then you should absolutely be able to. and spot or listen should remain the only defense against it. but these should not be free actions where the opponent isn't allowed a counter action. a SD should get their sneak attack as a free action but must stay visible for the full round. your opponent should get attacks too (maybe just one since they were caught flat footed). also, if an SD reveals themself to attack, and a wizard touches them with a finger of death or something then they should not be able to shake it off by multiple attempts to hide.

you say that its easy to create a build that beats SD's and I'd say ya, I can make one that does but it sux vs most everything else. It IS hard to make a build that plays well and has 120 spot. Which answer's another question of why you see so many builds with 5 rog levels...

and to disatro's point, why is a +10 spot helm the only item that i can find to increase spot? i think i've seen a bow too but how am I going to use that? why not +5 spot rings or something? (which would create a sacrifice of some other skill... like Discipline.)

but in general, if they are able to fix the thing that kills an opponent's counter action it'd be a good thing. can't wait.

- Glow -

[Anelad]

play better, dont whine

[Korr]

Its not about "play better, dont whine" hipsing clears your que, casters lose spells and melee toons lose their combat focus. This is the problem with the hipsers, you can stand around and just hit hide over and over and over and keep from being attacked (spells or weapons) even if you CAN see the person hiding. I love the idea of having hide with a cool-down period so to speak, but that will just mean all the hipsers around will be 35 monk / 5 SD with blinding speed and run up get their attacks in and run run run run run run run run untill they can hide again. But thats where that spot bow comes in mentioned earlier ';)

[disastro]

all useless re-re-rehashing aside, it would be nice to see more +detect items to give an alternative to building spellcaster spotters.

i think i know what project linux is referring to and it would allow for some stellar mods indeed.

everybody wish for that for christmas!

[Alkapwn]

I noticed this thread is mostly just about SD's in PVP.
What about PVM? If this cool down is implimented it will kill the adventuring SD. Its hard enough to level the frail little guys as is. Everytime you see a spell go off you act like a fainting goat. And what about the Komodo's,Tiamat Rangers, they would certainly nerf their abilities....
Its true that certain builds are useless vs sd's but they are very effective vs other builds.
Everyones main concern is obviously pvp relic defence/raiding. The only faction that can't have sd's is AO and NC and honestly I rarely like to take an SD into both those factions because they build vs them. And they build well. I've only come across one SD type toon that was not easily beat since wipe and I've killed many,many,many builds.
Seriously yer all crying about a minor annoyance. Just wait till NC's builds an army of well built cots. 70ab + upto 400dmg+/rd of divine dmg + highAC/DR... and you think sd's need nerfing. lol. but then again look who's posting.....

[disastro]

nah if the cooldown mod comes in sds will still be very powerful, but they'll have to rely more on skillz gained from the OTHER 35 levels they have, and less on hips mashing

[frogofpeace]

I believe NC can have SD's, unless that's been changed since the wipe.