Death Immunity/Mind Buffs

[Chernobyl_Glow]

So about a week ago I was in a party in HOD where the whole party (all at full health and buffed) got killed by one Wail of the Banshee. I’m trying to figure a way to help a party survive that. A spell that can insta kill even one or two players is a battle changer. Its unacceptable, if everyone but your fighter dies. And kind of irrecoverable if he rolls a 1 (like he did). So,…

Trying to clarify: Do Clarity and Death Ward stack for a +7 bonus vs, Mind Affecting Death Magic? Does Mind Blank also stack to +11? Which overlap? The way the Change Log is written it implies that Clarity and Mind Blank don’t stack. But that Death Ward does stack with either one. So +7 or +8 depending on whether Ward is stacked with Clarity or Blank?

If so, it seems that with a 4 player party my cleric just lost 8 spell slots. But that might be the only way to get a small party into HOD (assuming that you can hit the Sorcs with their New Epic Mage Armor.

FYI the Wail DC was 45 which seems a little high for a spell that can kill multiple targets. Again, if it wipes out half of the group it is enough to create a “whole new strategy”. It seems that one thing requires 8 special spells slotted and special gear added just to survive is a drastic change. Remember the Plague Mommies () still do nasty stuff and demilichs are almost untouchable. I still can’t hit the Phantoms, etc. Taking that one enemy and making it go from weak to strong changes the strategy of the whole group of them.

It’s a lot harder now. It seems like the spell DC was set to make sure that it hit everyone that didn’t have an immunity. Now that no one can have immunity shouldn’t it be gauged to hit those with low fort and no spell buffs? Wouldn’t a DC 41 or 42 accomplish the same thing but reduce the chance of having a party wipe from one spell?

Thanks for the tips,

- Glow -

[MLoki]

First off Wail is not a Mind Effecting spell so you would only get the +4 from Death Ward plus other applicable items/buffs.

Secondly your saves should be around 30 unbuffed which make a DC 45 easy enough to beat with items and buffs.

Don't forget Spellcraft +8, Protection From Spells +8, (Immunity Spell +4), Bard Song +4, Helm +4. Need more?

Which brings us to the commonly used phrase here I am sure the DMs and Devs will use; "build better"

Now as far as the Demi Liches go, they have an obscene AC now that Epic Mage Armor gives them a +12 Shield Modifier. Perhaps NPC Casters should be looked at across the board if they haven't already been modified. The Vamps and Demi Liches in HoD, the Sorcess in Dragon Eyrie, and even the Drider Wizards in DWP all got a huge boost with this change. Not sure what other creatures use Epic Mage Armor but any that do probably already had a decent AC and have become almost untouchable now.

[disastro]

Secondly your saves should be around 30 unbuffed which make a DC 45 easy enough to beat with items and buffs.

well, you'll get mid 30s save if all your pre-20 levels give that as a primary save, the relevant stat is jacked up AND you have the right eq. unless by "build better" you mean "build monk/divine gracer." if con based fighters are having to take epic fortitude just to be last man standing vs fortitude effects, well that bites for everybody else.

Don't forget Spellcraft +8, Protection From Spells +8, (Immunity Spell +4), Bard Song +4, Helm +4. Need more?

protection from spells is great of course, but keep in mind that +8 spellcraft is only available to spellcasting class, +4 fort comes only from 38 levels of bard, and of course helms only help mind saves and not fort, which is in question here. unless by "build better" you meant "build spellcasting class and strap a 38 bard to your tuchus."

making the new death ward into a party aoe like mind blank/prot spells would probably take some of the sting out of it.

Not sure what other creatures use Epic Mage Armor but any that do probably already had a decent AC and have become almost untouchable now.

a good point. however this same point applies to perhaps tweaking some wail of the banshee mobs to take into account recent changes, eh? the staff DID ask for precisely that kind of info.

[Tsavong]

I don't agrey I had a necromancer before the wipe who could use Wail of the Banshee but it was quite easy to counter with shadow shield or deathword just making people immune even if they have a fort of say 2 also most of the mobs that ide lvl in post 30 seemed to be immune outright.

And as Mloki said you should always plan to have a high fort save and yes that dose mean taking epic fortitude as before the changes implosion could kill you and as far as I remember there was no way to become immune to that apart from a fort save.

Yes instant death spells like epic Banshee are annoying when you die to them but if you could simply make your self immune to them wouldn't that be too easy especially considering the amount of int and feats you need to get a DC in a Banshee up to the mid 40s

[disastro]

I don't agrey I had a necromancer before the wipe who could use Wail of the Banshee but it was quite easy to counter with shadow shield or deathword just making people immune even if they have a fort of say 2 also most of the mobs that ide lvl in post 30 seemed to be immune outright.

i think you misunderstood what i said tsavong.. my point was to agree with the original poster in perhaps having the wail dc *as casted by certain mobs* tweaked downward a bit, not to bring back immunity.

[LinuxPup]

Yeah if a whole party got wiped out by wail, the party probably shouldn't be in HoD... wail is much easier to resist than implosion.

[MLoki]

Secondly your saves should be around 30 unbuffed which make a DC 45 easy enough to beat with items and buffs.

well, you'll get mid 30s save if all your pre-20 levels give that as a primary save, the relevant stat is jacked up AND you have the right eq. unless by "build better" you mean "build monk/divine gracer." if con based fighters are having to take epic fortitude just to be last man standing vs fortitude effects, well that bites for everybody else.

Don't forget Spellcraft +8, Protection From Spells +8, (Immunity Spell +4), Bard Song +4, Helm +4. Need more?

protection from spells is great of course, but keep in mind that +8 spellcraft is only available to spellcasting class, +4 fort comes only from 38 levels of bard, and of course helms only help mind saves and not fort, which is in question here. unless by "build better" you meant "build spellcasting class and strap a 38 bard to your tuchus."

making the new death ward into a party aoe like mind blank/prot spells would probably take some of the sting out of it.

Not sure what other creatures use Epic Mage Armor but any that do probably already had a decent AC and have become almost untouchable now.

a good point. however this same point applies to perhaps tweaking some wail of the banshee mobs to take into account recent changes, eh? the staff DID ask for precisely that kind of info.

As for feedback, I've been through HoD several times since these changes with and sometimes without Bards or Divine Caster and never with Divine Grace and not even with a base fighter class in the first 20 levels. I have only had a serious wipe in HoD while trying to tackle the bosses. Demi Liches are tough but only because they take so long to kill and that becomes a problem when at least 2 of them spawn in the Lich Kings area. Sorceress go down easily enough if you can get a jump on them but once again in the Boss Zone you don't have that opportunity very often.

At first I had a problem with these changes but now that I have played with them I feel they actually make it more exciting to explore these areas cause you aren't really sure if you will live or die in them. I still feel that these immunity spells could benifit from an increased bonus with the proper Spell Focus. The DCs I have seen in these areas are comparable with what a Player could get so I don't see a need to reduce those to make it any easier.

Oh and btw.. try this helm out since I am sure it will help you against Wail and you can even get it on the way in.

http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.php/Death%27s_Head

I am sure there are other things to help you with your fort saves if you look hard enough.

http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.ph ... _Skin_Belt

And just an FYI if you aren't a caster you can still get a +4 to saves with Spellcraft.

With just these items and a few choice feats you are looking at only failing on a one.

[Fezz]

I am all for leaving it like it is, its good now that you actually have to think what your using.

Someone posted in another thread how 80% of toons are using a lvl 16 merfolk helm all the time, right here is a great reason to perhaps carry other equipment options with you.

Also i cant see the problem if like ppl have been saying your party has the right elements of classes / buffs / equipment etc then 1 person should survive, and yes maybe only that fighter or barbarian with the maxed out fort save - but more likely your friendly NC pure pally or COT build with cracked up saves

And then he might have scrolls or being pure pally get you all on your feet again. This mod was/is billed as a challenge and i think the problem we are experiencing, and i say we because i acted like a baby over my shifter being nerfed. Is basically that the challenge is slowly being re-introduced to the mod by people like linux and loki, we had it too easy for too long - with soloing ragnar at lvl 24 with my shifter. And when was the last time anyone that was 25 ish or above really gave a rats behind about someone/thing casting wail ?? it was all to easy.

Do what I have done sit back think and try and see why these changes are being made - its not a personal attack or because dm/dev hate players and are trying to make ppl leave, i believe that at the end of the day it is so that this server will be one of the most challenging places to play wherever you go at whatever levels.

Its to easy these days to get to 40 an we all know it i have a 40 druid shifter, a 33 pure pally, a 33 pure monk and a 25 pure wizard already - and ive canned a couple of builds around 17 - 20. Yes i play a lot more than some but when you consider a LOT of those lvls were solo i think perhaps youll agree like i said earlier - to easy for to long. And for those of you that play a fair bit less : think of the accomplishment you will feel when you actually get that toon up there to 40 - on a super challenging server.

Thanks for reading.

[mgrjebbo]

How about making implode an AOE again. It was always fun to watch a hole party get wiped in the temple of sunken.

[VagaStorm]

How about making implode an AOE again. It was always fun to watch a hole party get wiped in the temple of sunken.

Having that a target spell where the best thing that ever happend to that spell as far as I see it.... I think self implode where the nr1 reason I got killed with my cleric on 3.5 O.o