Shifters...shapes/powers

[Daltian]

When it's done...I'm pretty busy today.

I'll try to get the shifter level 20 wildshape 4 stuff in. That's as far as it'll go, that leaves 15 levels for twinking with whatever TC class you can throw on. Of course that still disqualifies you from any of the epic feat category shapes.

I'll also see about switching the dire tiger and the lower level shape with the halberd weapons.

I think you missunderstood me. I wanted to know when to log in in order to do the testing you announced.

[Lokey]

Ask a dm when you can find one. Make a shifter/whatever and we'll throw xp and cash at you, put tester or something in the name. I think anything looks playable up to at least level 10 or 12 (well you can get an 8/8/8/8/8/8 commoner that high with 2 points in animal empathy).

We need to look at a barb mix (there's probably some decent dr builds lurking in the dex shapes), rogue mix (rogue or monk to get epic dodge) and a bard mix. If you don't want to lose a bab point or have a shot at 4 swings, you need 8 druid/8 shifter pre-epic. Malik might be able to reroll his shifter/cleric into a bard, not sure there.

My fighter has 53 spot/listen, I need to see about checking out those night elves in the Shadow Plane (everything else is not a concern, can't touch most shapes if you're a dex build). Normal shadow plane stuff isn't threatening. Also I'll have to check with some equip that actually has spot/listen benefits

[Malik]

Yeah, I'll reroll a bard

[Lokey]

Don't do it. Then I'll have an ac 70 ab 64 Dire Tiger Saves will probably hit the 50s...

[DOGsoldier]

To really understand a player that makes a shifter here is to make one then you can understand, meaning start at lvl 1 and continue to get your own gear and then when you feel satisfied go raid and see what happens. Have to be in the shoes of the ppl that make them to really understand.

[Lokey]

If we weren't doing that, Tep could have done it in an hour

The mixed shifters aren't bad. You probably need either dex or con to make it work, then grab your flavor shape.

Barb: tougher leveling for the better end result, and not sure how good that actually is. Yay disc. Took the epic dr feats, not much else exciting. Earth Genasi because there are no other tanks as far as that ability is concerned. Earth plane in imbued golden gear at level 40 (slash/pierce resist, shifter bonus feats to first level of first 3 elements): elder earths bring some pain, as do Stalactites and Formers (easy to kd). Bludge resist would knock 25 damage down to 10 at that gear level. Dwarf home: generics are tankable, not kd or disarmable at attack barb can throw. Got stoneheld once, but that save varies...will is pretty low, but no boosts from equip outside wis either.

Rogue: could be fun, tricky to level, everything is spoken for if you want epic dodge and imp crit/whatever on one weap and ab is going to hurt (you have to lose one to get the two bonus feats to get epic dodge, losing poison immunity from druid). Might be easier with stat books and probably playable, haven't run this against anything real yet. I'm all over search checks and locks though. Generic elf, drow would be +39 skills and SR...able to max tumble, listen, lore, search, open lock, cc disc, bit of UMD. Equipped in generic level 30 gear, see how he does.

Fighter: dex is pretty nice, seems solid in strength forms. Plenty of feats with 12 fighter to get some good stuff, sack one ab to go up to 15 or 18. Epic discipline focus seems unneeded unless you need triple digits of the stuff, Fighty could be more optimized. Halberd version has 55 ab out of a +5 weap and +6 str item (I know, totally unplayable).

Malik will report on cheesing with cler/bard and Tep will on monk (he wasn't that impressed).

The totally wis focused dragonshaper shifter has the tougher time, especially leveling. Can milk the wyrmlings and animal empathy early, could certainly go less than 20 shifter and still get all the epic shapes (then have decent druid spellcasting and elemental form).

Undead, planar and construct shapes still need work. Dragons need tweaks. All the lesser shifter shapes need special qualities and abilities hammered out.

[Shhhhhhh]

Is it possible to have 1 or 2 of the lower shapes to be playable by pure druid/shifters that focus on Wis too? Just so they have some decent shapes to use untill they get to epic lvls and can take the epic feat shapes.
It seems atm you are balancing all shapes with druid/shifter/third class in mind and with points in dex or const, which means a really tough time lvling for the pure shifters.

[Daltian]

I found out that ilithid, medusa and drow are quite nice, drow could use some sneak attack damage, evasion and/or off hand weapon. Since I leveled mine as druid12/28 shifter with dex to get blinding speed and wis to go up to construct I got some interesting results. Pre epic shapes are generally better then epic ones. Undead have same ab as humanoid non epic shapes, outsiders and constructs get much worse stats. Iron golem and slaad are good with dual wielding but they lack AB. I believe epic shapes should have much better ab bonuses then non epic ones since they can't get better ab using other classes like barb or fighter. Same as AC and discipline due to tumble and disc not being class skills.

Also, elemental shapes that druid gets are in the same league of the shifter shapes if not better.

[Lokey]

Updated my results post above.

Need suggestions on special abilities and special qualities.

Wyrmlings, elementals, druid animals and dragons are ok barring a few things...elder drags should get another ability probably. Table that for now.

Mind immune, freedom, haste, kd immune are off the table. Poison immune druids get, maybe on the gargoyle since he has some minor poison.

I think wildshape 2 looks ok on abilities (mino combat feats (can't grant imp kd), garg stoneskin, harpy weak AoE heal friend/hurt enemy). Is there anything specific to lacking?

I think human shape looks good except for granted abilities. Maybe drop kobold armor bonus to account for size bonus to ac.

I think wildshape 3 has 2 axe wielding shapes now...

Drider with mace = bludgeon. Maybe another shape with bludge?

[maibs]

will improved elemental shape scale with the druid levels ?
it takes 20 druid levels to actually get it and as a druid caster it was kinda like tensors transformation for druids sort of thing...... except that the ac ended up being worse than the actual human form ac

I know it isn't something a druid has to pay massively to get, however if someone doesn't have books and has to take dragon form late, you're stuck with imp elemental shape, my druid got dragon shape at something like level 33 or 30 or something like that, and that was with min-maxed stats in wis and dex (pre-wipe with no books).

anyway please consider that for a druid that isn't specialised in changing shapes and actually is a caster, imp elemental shape is your panic button (granted it isn't as good as time stop but you work with what ya have hey )

(and yes... those are the kind of druids I like to play....)

[Daltian]

Elemental shapes look really good now.

[Daltian]

Medusa and ilithid look good. Large dire tiger is alternative to panther shape when shifter has a lot of shifter levels and just a few druid, maybe should be given 30% speed bonus too. And make it smaller, way to big to navigate around.

Also. I noticed shifter shapes don't get any bonus damage on their weapons. Is there any way to get some damage? I mean, elemental shape has it. And since druid/shifter has no way to enchant his weapon it would be cool to get at least some damage.

Add some sneak attack to drow shape, since he is hipser shape now?

[Lokey]

Ok, various ideas from a couple people together in one place:

Wildshape 2 is looking ok. Possibly Minotaur could use something...little more disc? Bit of Fort save?

Wildshape 3
Basilisk: Improve stone gaze (15 + half shifter level).
Drider: Web bolt in addition to darkness (touch attack, lasts a turn. Str check every 2 rounds to break dc scaled by shifter level).
Manticore: Piercing damage magic missile, one ranged touch to make, damage applied all at once (max 10d8 at 30 shifter).

Humanoid
Kobold has a scythe, it doesn't get much better. Trade in invis for rage. Drop granted ac by a little, up disc boost over other shapes (70 ac shouldn't be too easy to hit).
Drow gets sneak damage. Keeps darkness. Gets ultravision.
Lizard don't see any changes worth making, had forgotten disarm(whip).

Wildshape 4
Medusa as basilisk. Also gets stone to flesh.
Tiger: rage. up general disc boost.
Ithillid: Self buff still DR (+8/between 10 and 20 based on shifter level soaks up to 250 based on level). Gaze attack gives damage vulnerability to physical damage (10%) for a short time on failed will save plus decreases will save without save by one on living enemies (not undead, elementals or constructs), lasts 5 rounds, effects stack.

Bloodfrenzy for shifter = +6 str, +4 con, +2 will save lasting 2 turns.

All shifter abilities are extraordinary (can't be dispelled by the dispel or breach spell lines).

Undead needs some kind of work. Vamp is the new risen lord, but he needs to be able to do something. Spectre possibly with innate 50% conceal--look over abilities (all the undead will have harm self 3x per day).

Planar: Slaad--getting decent regen and one of the few things with elemental resist doesn't seem hot enough. Min caster level for Rak spells. Azer gets SR.

Construct: Iron golem tanked well for me back when I looked at. Maybe make rock golem better on damage or pure stats. Demonflesh needs a new direction.

At least we're getting somewhere, I'll see about getting the non-epic feat changes above worked up in a day or two.

[Daltian]

Azer definitelly needs more work. AC around 50 and ab around 40 arent exsactly great. Remember epic shapes need more ac and ab then non epic ones since they cant be multiclassed.

Minotaur and drider look very nice now. Mino is great, good ac and decent ab considering it's low lvl shape.

[Amoenotep]

base shapes from a monk mix point of view seem to have reliable ac's ranging from 60-80 depending on the mix of monk i take. ab's ranging from 25-55. not the greatest considering the lack of self buff options i recieve. basically he's good at standing in a fight and being ineffectual.

damage output is horrid depending on what your fighting and using. 5-40 pts/hit in various shapes to the avendel mercenary guards at the crossing. takes a while to kill those, hate to see it somewhere nasty. i miss my doulbe stacked damage .

i'd say the base forms are done, perhaps steady out a 3rd tier for the shapes at a much higher shifter lvl. would prevent overlapping cheese. maybe not, would probably create some new headaches. although my gargoyle having 1100hp is funny when looking at a 1200hp dragon shape dragon