Ranger and Summon creature IV

[Daltian]

PnP doesn't really matter here doesn't it.

[Reaver.....[RR]]

The way I see it, beefy summons are a way for weak physical combat classes to balance themselves out a bit more. I don't see the ranger as a weak physical combat class, therefore I don't really see the point to requiring a beefy summon. If you want the RP value, animal emp works pretty damn well.

[Daltian]

Poor blackguards and clerics, they sure are weak physical combat classes....not.

[Blystos Re]

Well...they are nerfing DK...so clerics are back down with the rangers now.

....but without HiPS and animal empathy and a speed bonus and...

[Daltian]

Well...they are nerfing DK...so clerics are back down with the rangers now.

....but without HiPS and animal empathy and a speed bonus and...

You do have haste from domain, talk about speed bonus. And you also have a lot of nice spells. And you do know animal empathy is useless in PvP, do you?

[Reaver.....[RR]]

Blackguard gets a better summon, ranger gets better bonuses for themself. Who do you think loses out there most? Especially considering you require 22BG for a half worthwhile summon. As for the cleric, I feel they are pretty imba, but with spells being hit pretty heavy lately, I wouldn't doubt there will be more casualties to the magical arsenal.

[Daltian]

Blackguard gets a better summon, ranger gets better bonuses for themself. Who do you think loses out there most? Especially considering you require 22BG for a half worthwhile summon. As for the cleric, I feel they are pretty imba, but with spells being hit pretty heavy lately, I wouldn't doubt there will be more casualties to the magical arsenal.

BG can have Divine might/Divine shield. They have sneak attack, contagion, awesome saves, smite good, corrupt weapon and get to have at least 10 lvls of some other class that can give them a lot more bonuses. Not even comparable.

What am I talking about. You could take 10 lvls of ranger before blackguard and get a lot of bonuses ranger has and still get all benefits of BG.

[Blystos Re]

You do have haste from domain, talk about speed bonus. And you also have a lot of nice spells. And you do know animal empathy is useless in PvP, do you?

Passive, dispell-proof, 10% movement bonus > 20% dispellable, castable, short term movement bonus.

And TRAPS! WOOO, TRAPS!

[Daltian]

You do have haste from domain, talk about speed bonus. And you also have a lot of nice spells. And you do know animal empathy is useless in PvP, do you?

Passive, dispell-proof, 10% movement bonus > 20% dispellable, castable, short term movement bonus.

And TRAPS! WOOO, TRAPS!

When did haste become 20% movement bonus? Its 50%!

And how much intelligence would I need to get all the skills you are saying ranger gets. ok. HIPS (hide and ms), discipline, animal empaty, craft trap, remove trap, search, spot, tumble, set trap. maybe few points in spellcraft (saves are very much needed lately). Thats 11 points per lvl. Also, since you are spotter you can't be human cant you, so no bonus points ther. To get 11 points per lvl you need 7 intelligence modifier. Thats not so bad. Ranger that starts with 24 int from lvl 1. I have seen many of those lately.

But then again. You could build another toon just to craft traps and get them with remove traps, so you don't need search, craft and remove traps. I am sure you feel much better now. You only need 8 points per lvl and that means starting with "only" 18 intelligence from lvl 1. You could use a +2 book at lvl 10 and put only 15 points in spellcraft. Still 16 inteligence from start. Not something you can really do since you need some wisdom, constitution and a lot of dex too. Doesn't seam like a good plan to me.

[Korr]

Oh no? Youll need int to get skills, everyone has to do that. Change your list a bit to make it more reasonable... hide/ms/disc/empathy(doesnt need maxed)/SC/tumble/set trap, 16 int. Now go for Improved Knockdown, and Improved Disarm, and Improved Expertise!!! Make a wizard to craft and disable traps...

[Daltian]

Oh no? Youll need int to get skills, everyone has to do that. Change your list a bit to make it more reasonable... hide/ms/disc/empathy(doesnt need maxed)/SC/tumble/set trap, 16 int. Now go for Improved Knockdown, and Improved Disarm, and Improved Expertise!!! Make a wizard to craft and disable traps...

You didn't read my post did you?

[Reaver.....[RR]]

Oh no? Youll need int to get skills, everyone has to do that. Change your list a bit to make it more reasonable... hide/ms/disc/empathy(doesnt need maxed)/SC/tumble/set trap, 16 int. Now go for Improved Knockdown, and Improved Disarm, and Improved Expertise!!! Make a wizard to craft and disable traps...

You didn't read my post did you?

Seemed to be literate to me...

Frankly, if you're HiPSing, fastmoving melee'er requires a beefy summon, try a rebuild instead. Also, I'm amused at how the number of skills you require has anything whatsoever to do with your original point, but hey, welcome to pretty much every sub-group class.

[Blystos Re]

My mistake on the % of haste, sorry about that.

But I also forgot that the ranger gets 20% not 10%, so...meh.

Daltian, I seriously had no idea that I peed in your cheerios...I'm sorry, man...these things just seem to happen. When was the last time that you took every neat skill available to a character? Prioritize.

Craft Trap
Discipline
Hide
Move silently
Set trap
Spot

If you're an elf, you'll have to start out with 14 int to max all of those as a pure ranger. You would want 13 for expertise and the improved yadda yaddas anyhow.

Or if you want to you can forgo 2 str and 2 wis, get them later and start with 16 int, then you can max disable trap and animal empathy as well.

Seriously though, what ranger really needs disable trap anyway? The answer: one that can't hunt. You want to disable traps, build a rogue. Rangers should always catch something in their traps.

[Blystos Re]

For example:

Ranger(40), Elf
---
STR: 12 (16)
DEX: 18 (26)
CON: 10
WIS: 14
INT: 14
CHA: 8
---
Hitpoints: 480
Skillpoints: 258
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 24/24/24
Saving Throw bonuses: Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 30
AB (max, naked): 37 (melee), 42 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 18/22
Spell Casting: Ranger(4)
Alignment Changes: 0
---
Craft Trap 43(45)
Discipline 43(46)
Hide 43(51)
Move Silently 43(51)
Set Trap 43(51)
Spot 43(50)
---
This is not even remotely tuned, basically I just threw together a ranger. This is with no books and no gear. Those Epic Traps are really no fun to walk through with a relic on your back.

[Daltian]

But do you really thing that ranger doesn't need better summon? I mean, clerics which shouldn't have great summon have it. Blackguard isn't all that weak without summon either. I am not saying to nerf cleric or blackguard, they are good as they are, just that ranger could use it too.

Ranger is supposed to have companion. It's in main definition of class.