Divine Power and Tensers Transformation AB

[Korr]

My point is hardly to make a great build in the 10 seconds I think about it before I post it up. I was responding to the "fighters should have best AB ever" and the fact then that AAs are just mushy meat to be eaten, because theyre not.

[Chernobyl_Glow]

As it is you still get high ab

No. You don't.

...with bonus of some awesome buffs including haste, damage shields, spell buffers and what not.

So do Clerics and Bards except they Do get AB bonuses.

...And get to cast damage spells and dispells. You need to cast tenser again after that, but you still have the option.

None of which work if you are focused in Tensers which is necessary to make it worthwhile. Low Spell Pen and Low DCs. If in Tenser's mode, one hit will do more damage than an IGMS (~50 with low caster levels)

...And yes, you can be dispelled but you have to accept that option if you take only 20 lvls of caster class.

A sacrifice which is only acceptable if you gain Tenser's at full power.

...

Daltain. No offense but you seem not to understand the concept at all. Build one if you think its good the way it is. Get back to me after. Show me a build that would be worth trying with the spell the way it is. There really aren't that many viable and playable builds if the spell was fixed. I respect your general knowledge but you don't understand me on this one.

Best Regards,

- Glow -

[-BannyD-]

the problem with tensers "AB" is that it works towards the buffable +20 cap. sure you can get a large boost of ab, putting you on par with that of bards and normal melees...but you cant get any higher than that, most other classes can.

if tensers gives you 20bab and you are a pure wizard...you get a +10ab buff as well as several more attacks per round. if i understand buffs correctly...this, on top of a +8 weapon and haste, give you +19 ab from magical sources...you can only increase your ab 1 more before nothing else helps

if tensers gave +1ab/2caster lvls...that same pure wizard would get a +20ab boost...capping the buffable AB. however, since it would not be adding to your BAB you would not gain extra attacks unless it was coded in there as well.

1 ab vs 2-3attacks? ehhh

although i could be wrong...im not sure if weapon enchantment acts towards the +20 magical ab cap (but pretty sure it does).

[Bargeld]

We arent considering pure casters... the entire premise of this request is for an arcane fighter who takes all warrior levels pre-20 and all their wiz/sorc levels after 20. The BAB is maxed in this case, so NO benefit is current gained, except from that of the str/dex (please read first post, it is quite clear on this). The ab bonus i am seeking is for the 17 or 18 wiz levels taken from lvls 22-39, which should add an additional +9 ab. No worries about that cap here...

I think of the recurring theme of 'build better' 'build smarter'. I think i have a creative idea that I would like to attempt and the change requested should not have a large impact on existing balances. It has also been shown that to specialize in this manner, you are making large sacrifices (if I were to combine all the penalties/weaknesses listed in this thread thus-far, the line item list would be a long one).

[Bargeld]

After consideration, banny, you have a great point. A pure caster would cap the +20 bonus and it does need consideration. It helps to support the claim that the impact on pure (and almost pure) casters will not be overpowering.

[Daltian]

As it is you still get high ab

No. You don't.

...with bonus of some awesome buffs including haste, damage shields, spell buffers and what not.

So do Clerics and Bards except they Do get AB bonuses.

...And get to cast damage spells and dispells. You need to cast tenser again after that, but you still have the option.

None of which work if you are focused in Tensers which is necessary to make it worthwhile. Low Spell Pen and Low DCs. If in Tenser's mode, one hit will do more damage than an IGMS (~50 with low caster levels)

...And yes, you can be dispelled but you have to accept that option if you take only 20 lvls of caster class.

A sacrifice which is only acceptable if you gain Tenser's at full power.

...

Daltain. No offense but you seem not to understand the concept at all. Build one if you think its good the way it is. Get back to me after. Show me a build that would be worth trying with the spell the way it is. There really aren't that many viable and playable builds if the spell was fixed. I respect your general knowledge but you don't understand me on this one.

Best Regards,

- Glow -

I have never seen a cleric and a bard with spell buffer and/or damage shield, but as you say I might not understand the concept, or after I think about it, you don't. Also, have you ever seen ftr/wiz/pm, do I need to build one to show it to you?

So you are also quoting me that 20 ftr/20 wiz will not have a good ab? What is a good ab? Pure fighter half ogre one, maybe around 70? Wishful thinking, there are lots of builds that have 50 ab and work well with it. Monks, rogues, assasins.

IGMS damage that you said is also not true. 50 dmg? IGMS, non empowered one is d6+1 per lvl, so that would be around 90 damage, maximize it and you will have 140 dmg. That can't be bad considering almost non existent immunities to it and no need for DC, and with mords casted prior to it you don't need any more penetration to go to standard racial SR.

Fighter/wizard shouldn't be played in dumbed up way as normal fighter. You need different tactic and different approach to it. Its not a figher, its not a wizard, Its somewhere in between, so play it in that way! Or don't play it even, thats an option too.

To tell you the truth I was considering building sorc/bg/monk prior to this. It would use tenser and be very viable. Awesome damage and great AC with decent AB (but cant have them all can you). I know its viable and I'll build one when time comes.

[Bargeld]

This is an important thread/topic to me and I would like to keep on track. I appreciate the concepts coming back and forth, and I think that it helps to further delve into the topic. I do want it to be explored because someone may come up with something we haven't thought about. BUT, please be careful with your claims, and make sure they are accurate and on subject. I don't want this shot down because we have a 5 page thread of people correcting each other. Granted corrections are needed here and there, but I am trying to present a case to the devs/dms. Hopefully, they will take a look into the this request and the balance repercussions, maybe do some testing (if they have the time ) and hopefully make the change. I do not expect an immediate change, or even a response, and I would prefer that the devs DO take their time and check it out and determine if it's balanced or not. I will be back with a summarized list of pros & cons that can be considered and built upon. But please don't kick this till it becomes a thread that is no longer worth reading or able to be read.

With that said, be aware that the lvl 1 spell - shield - negates all MM ILM IGM.

[Daltian]

With that said, be aware that the lvl 1 spell - shield - negates all MM ILM IGM.

Yes, but only wizard and sorc have it, so you get to cast IGMS and have protection from it. Not too bad I say!

[Amoenotep]

its also scrollable..so any rogue usually uses it.

and you can't cast and tensors at the same time.

[Sparky]

Also, the AB cap gained from sources other than feats or class level pre 20 is still +20 without a Hak.
So there's not really much that can be done AB for the spell with the hardcoded +20 cap.

[-BannyD-]

After consideration, banny, you have a great point. A pure caster would cap the +20 bonus and it does need consideration. It helps to support the claim that the impact on pure (and almost pure) casters will not be overpowering.

the point i was trying to make was partly this...but also...depending on the build, a different way of applying tensors AB bonus could be better.

for 20fighter pre-epic the +1/2 lvls is better...take 20wizard pre-epic and the bab boost is better.

its a difficult decision to change because then you screw over people who dont want to do your build and are working with the current script

[VagaStorm]

its also scrollable..so any rogue usually uses it.

A spell with no save that dos about 140 dmg, auto quicken that and you have 240 guaranteed damage a round... Evry one that can should stak shield scrolls, as it is the ONLY protection you have from that spell. Add it to a hipsing wizard or sorc that just breaks your attack que when you try to snatch em, (HORUS! this is you :p ) , and you will get pwnd without it Been there, done that!

[Bargeld]

There's 3 scenarios (I am disregarding the str/dex boost for simplicity):

20 warrior pre & 20 caster post
Current: No AB bonus
Suggested: +10 ab

40 pure caster
Current: +10 ab
Suggested: +20 ab (which will cap)

Middle-ground combinations (10 fight/10 wiz pre, for example)
Current: +5 ab
Suggested: +5 to +15 ab depending on the levels

In any given scenario, you are unable to gain more than +10 over current implementation (hence my 'I want my +9' statement).

The next consideration would be the character's chosen weapon. Currently, there are very few high level casters running around with anything other than a staff. This is due to staves providing additional spell slots, and causes playability headaches with resetting the spellbook with every swap (similar to shapechange dropping a known spell or 2 from each level). Focusing in a weapon as an arcane fighter, you have again made the sacrifice of additional spell slots that every other caster on the server currently uses.

Pros:
Maximum of an ADDITIONAL +10 ab over current implementation
Bigsby's line and ILM IGM are main offensive spells (* see cons below, relating to this)
Will not hit the +20 ab cap, self buffed... but may with group buffs (applies only to my suggested build of 20 warrior pre-epic)

Cons:
Low Spell penetration
Low DC (due to low primary casting ability modifier: int/cha)
Low spell duration in the case of 20 fighter pre/20 wiz post
Easily dispelled
No epic feats
All caster feats must be taken in the place of epic feats (combat casting/metas must be taken after lvl 20)
Low amount of spells per day (due to low primary casting ability modifier: int/cha AND fighter based gear, rather than caster gear)
*Offensive spells will probably not be chosen, in favor of fighter/defensive buffs, due to the low amount of spell slots available
For non-dex based, spells require manual meta-still, reducing the max level of spells available. At very high levels with improved gear, it *may* be possible to trade your platemail in for robes, but the 10-15 levels prior to having the necessary gear, you will be casting in plate... this would be levels 20-30+

I can tell you from experience that this is a hard toon to level after 20... at 25, you have received level 2, maybe level 3 spells, for 4-5 round/turn duration. At lvl 30, you are up to level 5 spells, with a duration of 9-10. At 35, you're getting closer with lvl 7-8 spells for 14-15 duration. Keep in mind that during that period you will probably need to manual-still them, lowing the max spell level by 1.

Did i miss anything in there?

[VagaStorm]

it should be noted that +20 is useless as both haste and wep counts towards that limit

[Chernobyl_Glow]

Tep,
You simple said "its also scrollable". Was this in reference to Tenser’s? I could not scroll it before. A risk you run into with one of these builds is that the number of Tenser's that you can slot is limited (Especially since IGMS and True seeing are the same level). I needed some scrolls for back up in long battles. I tried making scrolls and could not. Even if they are scrollable, they would be at base level and thus would only give ~+5 ab just like they do now. I do not see this as a reason that Tenser's could not be changed.

I listed the +20 cap as a reason that Tensers should be allowed to be corrected and work properly. The cap actually would act as a self balancing mechanism. I also mentioned that about 11 to 13 ab would be all that you could really gain from tensers. Also, this would effectively negate any bonuses that you could get from a bard or cleric in your group.

If Tensers were working at full str (1 per 2 caster levels) then a fully buffed AB of low 60's is all that you could hope for.

25 BAB
+8 Natural ability modifier
+6 From ability buffs
+3 from Weapon focuses
+1 Haste
+7 Weapon
+12 from Tensers

Who can clarify what items count toward the cap? I believe it is just Weapon and spells that directly add to AB so argument above, Haste and +7 weapon thus capping Tenser's at 12. I was unable to test it with my build though cause the existing version doesn't get you anywhere near the cap. My previous build could self buff to 55 and a cleric bard could get him to about 63. Which is right where I think the cap would be and happened to be exactly the difference of what Tensers should have given.

Daltain,
I assume Ftr/wiz/pm is a risk because a PM’s Spell progression continues in the existing class as he advances in PM? If so, you are absolutely right that this would be an unfair advantage. I had also recognized that a Ftr5/wiz3/pm32 might be a risk but the wiki is limited on PM info and I’ve never built one. But if this is the only risk then there should other ways to compensate for that so that the rest of us are able to use Tensers.
1. Make Tenser’s AB calculated based only wiz levels and not include PM levels. This would force either a focus in Arcane or a focus in PM. A mix would limit both. I could see a Ftr6/Wiz24/PM10 still being powerful. But they would only gain 6 ac not 16 from PM. Their summons would be greatly minimized. Graft and Master touch also greatly minimized. (AB would not apply to the Master touch correct?) and only 1 extra Epic feat vs 6-7 Epic feats from Epic PM.
2. Could also limit Tenser’s to not be able to be cast while a summons is in effect. Or have the casting of Tenser's dismiss the summons.

Is a PM variant the only build that could currently make a viable Tenser’s focused character? I don’t think that any current PM’s have been tempted to use Tensers as is. If so, I would say that it is viable because of the PM benefits of huge AC and Immunities and not because the Tenser’s being powerful. Tensers was meant to be useful by all mages not just the PMs.

As far as good AB? 60-65? Is that asking too much? What does a kobold have? Or a bard or a cleric? How else am I going to hit a kobold or a bard or anything else with ab of 55? Monks, Rogues, and Assassins have viable builds with 50’s AB because they are attacking with a sneak which bypasses some AC. Those are not straight melee characters and not comparable.

As far as damage reduction spells. Since a mage cannot wear armor like a cleric or bard his AC will be limited and he has to compensate with DR. Again just another trade off that is worth it if Tenser’s works and not worth it if it doesn’t. DR only prolongs a fight where as not being able to his someone cause this AC is 20 more than your AB will end the fight.

IGMS for a tenser’s build is a fall back or a finisher. If it is going to be your primary attack then you’ll basically wish you’d ditched even trying to be a Tenser’s build. Your damage correction of 90 vs 50 is valid. I didn’t do the math. I just remember realizing that I would do more damage if I could just hit the opponent by flanking (which was about the only way).

Try the Sorc/BG/Monk build. Its basically an evil version of Glow’s Sorc/Pal/Monk build. It’ll be quite unique, fun and cool. Your AB will be 55. Your AC will be about 60. From about level 25 to 35 you’ll think its great. In the low thirties though you’ll start to realize that you peaked about level 29 cause tenser’s isn’t giving you any more ab (stuck at 5), your spells aren’t hitting anything anymore and that gear and other things have cannibalized the Str, Dex and AC bonus that you were getting. By 40 you’ll sorely disappointed. You'll lose to everything from Barbarians to Mages. But good luck!

I’ll not be wasting my time with it unless they change it. Even then you'll still have a challenging build with some huge sacrifices to compensate for.

Best regards,

- Glow -