Bigsby Crushing hand bug

[Daltian]

[Apokriphos]

...snip from wiki...
if a discipline check (target's Discipline ranks + Arcane Defense + skill feats + d20 vs. caster's Concentration ranks + focus feats + d20)

It is based upon your base discipline along with any skill focus feats and arcane defense. This value is low for your pc, and is why you failed the spell check.

You rolled a one, so I'd say that Horus made off lucky with that spell.

[mgrjebbo]

base disc?.. ummm his base skill must be higher than that otherwise he has to have a strength of 200 to have a disc skill rank of 76. So are you saying its a pure strength check?

[PeregrineV]

I think just the ranks. So max of 5 at level one +1 for each level if points are put into it. Plus skill focuses, but excluding ability modifiers and item and spell modifiers.

[Apokriphos]

That depends on the shifted form. As an example, Dragons gain +40 discipline from their skin, and typically have 62 strength, or a 26 str mod.

Keep in mind the str mod of 26 stacks with the 40 discipline, & 2 slave rings (reaching the +50 cap) for a total of 76. Thats assuming he put *no points whatsoever* in discipline skill.

[LinuxPup]

Bigby's Crushing Hand forces the target to make a discipline check using their *base* discipline... that is, just the ranks you put in, nothing else like str modifier and item gear. Additionally you can increase your discipline check save by taking skill focus and epic skill focus in discpline, as well as arcane defense: conjuration.

[Daltian]

Hmm, strange. Never seen skills been used in that way. Pretty much all classes that don't have discipline as class skill have no chance to counter that spell.

[Apokriphos]

well, you could always make the DC check

You had a 38 base save already, so with NS4 gear, it shouldn't be too hard.

[DM_Kim]

I have a funny feeling that the failure has more to do with that little ole number "1" in your save roll.

[MrAsimov]

To be clear on this, what the wiki says is correct although not specific on everything in the description.

There are basically 2 things going on with crushing hand.
1)It makes an attack every round. There is a roll for this attack and then a fort save which if passed halves the damage.

Once per round the hand makes an attack on the target (Spell DC + 10 STR modifier + d20 vs target's AC). The damage is 2d8 + 1 per caster level. A successful fortitude saving throw halves the damage

2) There is Discipline check. If this is failed the target is stunned. And yes, some builds will find it nearly impossible to beat the DC vs a build designed to use this spell.

Additionally, if a discipline check (target's Discipline ranks + Arcane Defense + skill feats + d20 vs. caster's Concentration ranks + focus feats + d20), is failed the target is stunned for that round (bypassing any stun immunities).

[Daltian]

I have a funny feeling that the failure has more to do with that little ole number "1" in your save roll.

I didn't roll one to the discipline check. I rolled 3. And I always fail it, no matter what. As Druid/Shifter i can not put more then 21 point in discipline. But my shapes, items and strenght should make up for it (and I am not talking about the dragon, but all the other shapes too). But unfortunately its based only on ranks, not final value and with 21 rank in discipline + epic skill focus in it i can get 31 point in it. Still no way for me to counter stun. And since stun goes trough mind and crit immunity it turns out to be end of us.

[Bargeld]

Still no way for me to counter stun. And since stun goes trough mind and crit immunity it turns out to be end of us.

OMG you mean a caster can actually be effective?!

The fun part is to watch the mage try to kill something while it is stunned. I would normal put my bet on the bigs'd target making a save and beating the pulp out of the mage in 1 round.

[Sparky]

When we overhauled the whole series of bigsby's about 1.5 years ago, most of the spells were reworked to use total discipline score and not base ranks. This created a fairly large imbalance in the caster's favor, and was changed to use base ranks only as a way of bringing the spells back into line.

The current set-up does leave cross-class discipline builds out in the cold, but the design changes were made from a group play perspective and not a 1v1 perspective. So, bring a friend who has a wand or some pertinent spells slotted to help you out when in a bind.

[Tsavong]

As Druid/Shifter..... etc etc

no 1 build can do everything if it did it would be overpowered and wrong any how make something other than a druid/shifter to kill the nasty mage