Factional 3 way (avoiding lockdown)

[Bargeld]

Out of respect for those organizing the relic event, I wanted to continue discussion on a different thread, to avoid lockdown of the important one.

Just to recap (no pun intended!)

The recent debate was about factional enemies joining forces to raid against AO/RK... says AO/RK. It has been stated that Neils claims were baseless. Neil refutes this by giving recent in-game examples and adding some flourishes of his own. I'll pick it up myself from there...

DD does not have a pet TSS bard. We have a bunch of our own DD and allied IO and even a GoDS bard that run with us. I am honestly racking my brain to think of any TSS tagged bard in any recent history that has come on any raids with me and I can't think of any. So I will side with the 'baseless' claim on that one. Even if you meant TC instead of TSS, I still have no clue who you are trying to refer to.

As far as FoN Clad TSS DD IO and GoDS all joining forces to raid... you clump a number of different sessions into one and it sounds much worse than reality. Here is the truth on a day to day basis:
If the AO or RK cradle get tapped, there are typically 5+ toons that come to defend in either faction. This is usually 3 being neil plus who ever else they have or can call/IM etc. 5 is actually a lowball number. Remove the multi boxes and most days AO/RK get creamed. Even with the multiboxes, when you raid you get creamed, unless we have 3 players on, in which case it takes you guys 3 hours to move and buff all your toons around and you still only empty the cradle 1/2 way.

Back to AO/RK holding relics, all of their enemies know the futility of raiding with 1 or even 3 toons. To Neil, this is a fair fight, cuz its really just him, but he can pull out 3 toons to even the odds. Add a few more AO/RK players and the odds are stacked every time you raid them. So... when the odd man out from an enemy faction is in the mood for some PvP they see the need to get some allies on the fly, just to even the odds. They aren't doing it cuz they are best chums. They don't do it because the other guys helped em out the other day. They do it because they have an hour or so of play time and they want some relic PvP. Right now. If a raiding group is large enough, they will shun outsiders 99% of the time. I pose this to Neil: when was the last time 7 DD/IO/GoDS stomped you with a straggler TSS or FoN in group? Never. When was the last time 7 FoN/Clad/TSS came barreling though town with 1 DD? Ok, so I heard about that one time. One time! And Nyeleni didn't even want that solo, battle hungry DD with em.

The truth is people want PvP daily. AO/RK hold the relics by multiboxing numbers of 5+ between 2 guys. TC/NC will never raid SL/MA with a PWnD, maybe they might with a reaver/hn/tlb, ask em yourself. DD/IO/GoDS will never raid TC/NC with a PWnD/HN/RR/tLB. But will these 2 groups raid AO/RK with mixed groups? Yeah, it's been known to happen, but it isn't as common as you make it out to be.

I left SyN out because the do whatever they want. Gotta keep your eyes on those fellas... but they are still welcome to raid with us against all of y'all.

[weasel423]

Darn, I thought this would be a [censored] board

[Nyeleni]

Lol, I don't think I would stomach any RR or tlB in a raid. Maybe a HNs, but only because most of them are good chums. RR or tlB are too entwined with the despised PWnD, and yes, even you have some exceptions, only your black sheep are the ones I regard as decent human beings.
That said, I despise almost as much two DD players and one or two IO. GODS are just annoying with their PMs, if they still play them, but are pretty decent.
Ok, Im ranting again. To sum it up, don't expect me to make any prisoners if AO or RK is involved. And never trust a SL, and better if you try to annihilate the MA at once, else they start raising their zombies .
I even would say I distrust our own allies in NC. Never place a FoN behind you...

[frogofpeace]

Haha, convert or die, CLADdie!

Sure, we raid whoever with whoever. I've raided everybody with I think about everybody from every faction with toons from about every faction. The point is the PvP, much more fun if the parties are more balanced, or at least more fun if I'm in the party with overwhelming force. The staff seem to be monitoring this with a light hand, and until parties with non-allied members are struck down by divine fury/drowned in divine ale/smothered with divine dragon poo/slimed with divine slime, I don't see a change.

If you're trying to convince the people whining because they think they lost because someone ganged up on them, forget about it. You'll never win that argument.

If you're saying get rid of multiboxong, good luck - I think the staff have answered again and again that they aren't going to do it except under special circumstances that they can monitor closely.

If you're saying NC, should get rogues, I agree 100%.

[Rainswept]

I don't think I would stomach any RR or tlB in a raid. ... RR or tlB are too entwined with the despised PWnD,

Only some really singleminded individuals never play with other factions.

[Carejo]

I even would say I distrust our own allies in NC. Never place a FoN behind you...

You've been hanging around with Crazy, I see. Yeah, never trust anyone if they tell you they want to teach you about "Snipe Hunting".


Honestly, about this whole debate, I'm in the middle. Do multiple factions band together to raid AO/RK? Yeah. That's what you need to do, though. I don't hold that against you. It's the exact same complaint against us for having numbers on our side. So in some ways, Bargeld is right, in my eyes. Although, I find it frustrating that you have to fall back onto the whole multibox thing constantly as an explanation. Just call it more numbers, which is the way it's always been. Even back to MD before he triple-logged. The change is minimal, he's added one computer. And yet that seems to be the reason you can't lockdown top dog?

I've learned the numbers a long time ago. And there have been some times when I've been surprised. My general thought on the matter, is that it takes somewhere between 1.5 and 2x the number of the defending force to effectively hold the relic cradle and pull all relics out with no drops. And honestly, I feel like that number is required not because of the sheer force, but because of the likelihood of consistent countering. That is to say, that someone will bring a character that effectively neutralizes one of the defenders.

There have been times when just SL/IO raid, with same or lower numbers, and pull relics out. It's not a blue moon. And I applaud you. There's no contempt, from me at least. And don't perceive me angry, Bargeld. Hell, I think you're an alright guy.

[weasel423]

I don't think I would stomach any RR or tlB in a raid. ... RR or tlB are too entwined with the despised PWnD,

Only some really singleminded individuals never play with other factions.

OMG Rainswept may have made a good point here! Mark your calendar ;p

[burrahobbit]

Lol, I don't think I would stomach any RR or tlB in a raid.

I know you wont stomach me

The reality is, i dont dislike very many folks on the server at all. I've had the personal failings of playing after i return from the bar and had idiotic words with Neil and Deadeyes, (and countless others i wont name hehe) i am sure it annoyed them, but at the end of the day i still enjoy them very much. Psiber has reached the end of his patience with me but i dont feel any animosity towards him at all or MOST of the ao/rk folks. I tend to run a rather crappy attitude on the boards and i am sure it rubs many the wrong way. Its all in good fun as far as i am concerned and if i have crossed the line with some of you i truly am sorry.

My only gripe with the AO/RK's, and incidentally its also the reason i will join with anyone fighting them, is that you guys cant stay out of shout talking trash when you outnumber folks 3 to 1, and you never correct the cheaters in your midst.

We (my brothers and I and our little group of old geezers) tend to move to where the underdogs are. We used to run with AO vs SL but changed as soon as AO got on its feet.

Its my impression that multifactional raiding is just what happens against whoever is on top. Its been that way since i started here, and i wouldn't want it to change. The accusations of cheating in relic events come up but if i ever saw any cheating i would have put an end to it. Winning isn't that important to me or our group and i have always enjoyed the "underdog we are probably going to lose" take on things.

This isn't exactly what you guys are talking about but i just wanted to clarify my wishy washy position on some things.

[Rufio]

I agree with Bargeld. The few times I raid with another faction is when I want to pvp, but don't have enough TC/NC allies around to do it with, and it seems like a faction needs more manpower.

just the other day AO and RK with one of their novelty shifters were raiding SL, and I wanted to pvp, so I just ran to SL hoping to cause a little chaos. I ran into a MA hisper mage lurking around scouting and killed him (it was really good fight whoever that was, I never got a chance to tell him), and being near death I got out of there once I noticed an assassin lurking. Unfortunately AO had stopped raiding by the time I got there, so it was pretty uneventful, I decided it wouldn't be very smart to go up against the entire SL defense myself.

hehe, this reminds me of once a while back when AO was raiding MA, and I brought my air elemental into the MA cradle right in the middle of a raid, grabbed a relic, and brought it half-way back to TC with, SL, MA, AO, and RK all chasing me, all fighting eachother the whole time.

[Nyeleni]

I don't think I would stomach any RR or tlB in a raid. ... RR or tlB are too entwined with the despised PWnD,

Only some really singleminded individuals never play with other factions.

OMG Rainswept may have made a good point here! Mark your calendar ;p

Heh I only admit I'm singleminded about PWnD. Their actions overshadow AO and in a sad way RK too. I still allow my chars to play with other factions. And at lower lvls I sometimes even stomach an PWnD or two in the party. But that sometimes ends badly for your tradition of effy killing - esp. on the mountain path. Why should I bother then to party with you? Even worse is the uncalled for boasting (although we all sin in shout spamming from time to time).

[Alkapwn]

Someone's whining about getting raided by multiple factions? oh my ....

It's not like DD would ever venge log with a FoN to defend Menzo or anything.... hmmm Rainswept/Truth?
Or build TC toons to actively raid with us and drop the relics they get to our home faction. ..ConMoi?
Or leave idle multi logged toons standing around waiting for attackers... Niel?
Or Chugs full heal pots after full heal pots to protect a relic... Deadeyes?
and the list goes on and on of what DD doesnt do but really our PkCounts and Relic Caps speak for themselves. Done without cheap tricks and Multi boxing. A true warrior needs only one weapon.

We do however co-operate with opposed factions to wrest relics from usually outnumbered odds and share the relics while doing so, on rare occasion. This is always been a consistant trend for the server. I do remember not to long ago when all enemy factions would raid SL along with GODS,MA and DM toons aswell. And we just stuck it out and kept fighting. Isn't that what pvp is all about, boys and girls?

[Eldaquen]

A point that has not come up regarding this topic that should at least be mentioned. From The Circles point of view, even in this light RP server, TC is a neutral faction. Perhaps the concept of neutrality is being lost in the Abyss of anger and resentment that Aetheria seems to be lost in. Yes TSS will join mixed parties, even to raid. With that said, the actions of the population of other factions impact which faction TSS will and will not party with or join forces. In recent history MASL relationship to TC has been friendly. What I mean by that they are not acting as if open war is upon the factions. There are no secret meetings planning and coordinating efforts, just a friendly actions when goals align. At times they tolerate our presence and welcome the added aid in upper planar areas, leveling, and what not. Sometimes they don't. Whom TSS has and will party with or join forces with has ebed and flowed over time. A neutral faction will do so. Factions showing favorable or friendly actions will reap inkind response from a neutral faction or guild. With that said, it only takes a few from another faction to disrupt favorable improvement in relations.

Someone quoted "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

Some time ago; TSS partied and joined forces with RK (including members of RR) and others factions against SL, when they were on top. However things changed when PWnD rose to power and their close affiliation RR was formed. Not begruding that fact, just stating AORK/ PWnD/RR (and tLB) have a strong relationship. Much in the same way that TSS, CLAD, and FoN have a close relationship. Allied factions its to be expected and something would be wrong if that was not the case. Regarding relations with AORK and TC; a lot has happened over time and much water has built up under the bridge.

Right now (without stating on forums, shouting in game, etc) AORK (PWnD, RR and tLB) act as if open war was declared. By open war I mean above and beyond the storyline of Aetheria's relic war. The actions of AORK population have made it clear they will openly attack or take hostile action against TSS and our allies. For a period of time PWnD made it clear they would not party with rival factions, level lowbies with rival factions or allow rival factions in same area of Aetheria as their levling parties. This seems to have changed when the overall population of Aetheria decreased. Recent trend seems to be AORK willing to seek others for leveling parties. However past deeds have not been fogotten yet, and when see a PWnD/RR/tLB request for party; I still ask myself is that a genuin request or an attempt to discover rivals locations to pk. TSS is shying away from any member of PWnD or known non-tagged PWnD player builds. Does not everyone react the same to a person or group which has shown they are consistantly hostile.

One day another faction may will rise and commit atrocities that will force AORK and TNC ally. When or if this occurs is anyones guess.

This thread is implying that rival factions banding together to battle the top faction is negatively impacting some individuals enjoyment of the game AND that peoples multiboxing is negatively impacting the enjoyment of the game. The constant pointing fingers and bickering is not helping and only harming the community as a whole. I have read shouts, talks, party and tells in game from many on both sides that they enjoy and want the pvp experience. This thread, topics like it and the built up resentment on both sides are only going to reduce pvp experience and hurt the community as a whole. People on both sides have expressed boredom when no pvp or relic raiding is occuring; or when the other side is a no show to defend. Taking banding together or multiboxing away is not going to help.

PWnD is what the members wanted it to become, nothing wrong with that. However actions come with consequences in how rival factions/players react. Community is not a vacuum, players are not npcs: reactions and opinions to past deeds are persistant. Our minds do not reset when the server does. Yes this last statement contradicts a previous paragraph, but is a reality of the human mind. But if we all try to remember we are not RL enemies, and all just trying to enjoy the same game; maybe just maybe we all will enjoy playing more and walk away less often from a session dreading had logged on. Or post on a forum, which I am sure I will regret after get a response from this.

[mining]

As a general rule, this thread seems to be about "Oh, sorry about the anger, its nothing personal".

I have had 3 good experiences with PWnD in my entire time in Aetheria.

1) The PWnD garage sale, when I was playing my AO toon.

2) The recent PWnD pick up event. Lots of fun.

3) Every single time I spam KD on one of your low disc toons. Its a good experience .

Events that could have been fun:

I was looking for PVP, wound up fighting Atreyu [RR].

After a fight, where he apparently didn't hear the 'start' text (I'm sure you didn't, truly), he asked for a rematch. I was content to have this rematch, but I needed to go. Immediately he starts abusing me about being a chicken and the like. Next day I see him on, ask if he wants a rematch, he says sure. I log my original toon, and he complains about me swapping toon. Had the potential to be fun, but left me annoyed. Next day we saved a lowbie he had buffed on the mountain, and he killed us. Lowbie was annoyed at him too.

That essentialy typifies my experience with PWnD. I'll try to do the right thing by them (or at least not something totally wrong and destructive) and wind up with bad memories. I'm simply not bothering now. If I see a PWnD struggling in DF against an ogre, I will simply kill them now.

I also completely agree with Alka. I have talked builds with him and others from other factions, but tried to with a PWnD and simply gotten "My build is totally secret" even when its pretty obviously [censored] enough not to matter.

To add to Alka's list;
Its not like anyone would go around in Skara, get killed by a party a lower level than you in a suicidal attack, then call mother to mop up and DC 40s implode them, then head to Dwarf Home, run into the same people, attack them and then expect them to not kill you on sight... Members of tlB, RR and PWnD who will remain nameless. And how about the PWnD who ran into a resting party, starting attacking them, and complained when they got killed? I'm keeping these guys anonymous, because I don't want to turn this thread into a name and shame too much. You say its faction vs faction warfare. Lets face it, its guild hatred. PWnD, RR and tlB simply don't show us anything resembling human qualities. They are largely a faceless mass. Tru3, Neil and Hyk (to name one or two) get respect from me because they actual show who they are in SOME of their toons. I have no idea who Psiber's toons are, or who Rainswept's toons are.

Nyeleni says she won't party with tlB or RR. Not RK. RK is a seperate entity from RR, tlB. Ditto with HNs and PWnD (as Aiea sufferingly says).

The one time in recent history when DD and TSS / FoN raided 'together' was when we all were headed to RK, intercepted and chose to form a party. There was a TSS bard, yes. But no, it is not a DD pet. We basically stood in the RK zone and beat the crap out of the RK defender or two. It was simply a great way of killing the hell out of some toons. Good, clean fun.

[neil420]

well i must say i love that my very small posts create such a huge response must be hitting a nerve.as far as it gos you have never seen me on shout bragging your lucky if you have ever seen me shout at all.PWnD stands for Profiteers of War And Destruction as in we are a Mercenary group we don't really police our members.so i think it's harder for me to see things as what we do and not what i do.so yall talk bout all this stuff that PWnD has done but the truth is its stuff just a few of us have done.as far as DD being all Honorable give me a brake every underhanded thing i have ever seen on this sever this being the only sever i have ever played was done by a DCN Slave or DD first. what really funny is im sure i have said all this before when i was MD . i think this is my longest post ever lol

[Bargeld]

The multiboxing issue was mentioned in a DD conversation the other day and that was basically what was said. That, without their multiboxing, things would atually be pretty boring. I do agree, somewhat, and it made me think what it would be like without it. I think the upcoming relic war may show us the answer. My prediction is that it won't be boring, but it will just involve more and different players.

Alkapwn closed his post with my exact sentiments... it's not about needing tricks or multiboxing to win. We are proud of our ability to battle, proud of our toons, and proud of our guild and our factional allies (most of them).

When I first joined the server, I had a hard time understanding the separation of in-game war between toons and RL dynamics on the forum. Being evil in-game and evil on the forums are 2 separate things. I figured out that on the forums the underlaying RP element was used for fun and jokes, whereas in-game, that roleplay truly effects other players experience of the game. On the forums it does not. I learned that there is a difference between being a douchebag and being evil. Evil is a storyline. Killing on-sight, attacking lowbies, Red=Dead; this is not griefing. Disarming weapons and keeping them is not griefing. This is the role that I would hope DD plays. I want us to be respected and feared.

If anything, I think I have become too soft on my enemies as of late. Maybe this has been a bad example to set for my guildmates. Recent guild discussion and posts by all of y'all here on the forums makes me realize that sometimes I forget how the rest of the server perceives us and that maybe I need to spend more time on strategy outside of relic war and outside of building. It actually bothers me that Nyeleni questions the motives of PWnD in her group but doesn't question those of DD as much. As a lowbie on the mountain, I love to kill. But as toons get higher level and party requirements become more forgiving (due to population) the killing tends to slow down outside of relic war. This is just a fact for everyone (almost everyone, I'll come back to this). Me personally, it's probably my own fault for not starting enough toons. I think I am going to build a few for lower level PvP only and try to keep em there.

Back to the multiboxing issue, I've mentioned the following a couple times, but multiboxing enables a player to isolate themselves from the rest of the server. It allows them to buff and escort themselves and effectively removes all of the above server dynamics. Keeping groups 'in the family' is important to me and all 3 factional allied groups tend to do this. But sometimes we stray and mixed groups happen. Both in raids and in the grind. But it happens much less frequently with AO/RK, and I have to attribute it, in part, to the multiboxing. SL (IO) has a recent ex-AO player that multiboxes consistantly. At first he was totally shunned, except when he helped to defend. This was how he earned his way into broader acceptance. But IMO, the multiboxing has actually slowed his acceptance as it is a constant reminder (at least to me) of where he came from. And I have often times noticed that we have an allied party of mixed levels doing whatever, yet he is not involved becasue he is out leveling himself. If he did not have his own leveling party he would be more reliant upon his new allies and would get more interaction with them. I see multiboxing as a way of circumventing some aspects of the game that make a server what it is... interactions with other players. When you don't need to rely on anyone, even factional allies that are real players, it changes the game a lot.

In the end, like in any competition (daily, not just the relic event), the participants just want a level playing field... hence my issue with multiboxing.

And I like long posts because I like discussing with others. I don't do myfacetwitter becasue that isn't the type on online community I want. I like gaming, and I like discussions with gamers.