Pale Master Nerf

For the original NS4 server
Lokey
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Re: Pale Master Nerf

Post by Lokey »

John wrote:
Lokey wrote:But you did this to my hogre!11!!!!
...
I'll have to build one that can actually hide someday ;) (Without trickery domain cheese!)
what does this have to do with the topic ?!
It's in the commandments. I can post my lame hogre builds anywhere I want. I'm waffling on the trickery now...no, I deleted that thing for being too good for me to enjoy it. I'll dump it in Tep's vault for his birthday :)

Ah, PM. It can do things plenty of other builds can except it has ~PM level/2 more ac, is immune to crits and qualifies for epic spells without meeting other reqs... I kicked bard out of the qualifiers on NS3 for a reason (well mostly the player list being nearly all pali/fighter + bard 4 + pm 10), don't remember why we didn't do that here. Especially when we went on a bender building broken ones in the spring lol.

I don't have book of bad Latin, don't know the class specifics. Doesn't come up on PnP boards that I glance at much, though say Veil Initiate or Incantrix uber-uberness might have something to do with that (it probably loses more caster levels than Eldritch Knight for less than that class gets anyway).
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LinuxPup
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Re: Pale Master Nerf

Post by LinuxPup »

It's been over 2 years now since I started deving NS4 and I've made changes/updates that folks have really liked and really hated... I've found that when I nerf something it obviously effects someone's build... something they may have spent weeks/months on. The initial reaction by some when Binkyuk nerfed PMs a few years ago by adding divine/fire damage vulnerabilities was that now they were exceedingly weak and almost useless... well we know that was wrong... they continued to be one-man wrecking crews, and were generally the last to fall. Generally players' reaction to nerfs are extreme overreaction in order to make their unhappiness heard (e.g. "worthless" gets thrown around a lot). When I look at the numbers though it seems to fit right... they still have higher AC than most other builds + a bag of other goodies that makes the PM class quite worthwhile still.
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Rufio
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Re: Pale Master Nerf

Post by Rufio »

hehe, that is exactly what I thought when my air elemental hipser was nerfed: "this thing is worthless now!"

Then I logged it one day in a raid and it still killed everyone. Only difference was I kind of had to worry about dying for once :lol:
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rocketkai
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Re: Pale Master Nerf

Post by rocketkai »

Rufio wrote:hehe, that is exactly what I thought when my air elemental hipser was nerfed: "this thing is worthless now!"

Then I logged it one day in a raid and it still killed everyone. Only difference was I kind of had to worry about dying for once :lol:
Seriously, the fire elemental hipser is better than air now and it's still one of the best hips builds (or at least the toughest one) now. People used to think that druid's elemental shape builds are useless now, but there are still several very nice builds out there and just very few people touched them yet.

Rufio
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Re: Pale Master Nerf

Post by Rufio »

rocketkai wrote:Seriously, the fire elemental hipser is better than air now
That was honestly my biggest dissapointment of the elemental nerf, I want to use fire, but all my weapon focuses are in light hammer :(
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Alkapwn
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Re: Pale Master Nerf

Post by Alkapwn »

LinuxPup wrote:It's been over 2 years now since I started deving NS4 and I've made changes/updates that folks have really liked and really hated... I've found that when I nerf something it obviously effects someone's build... something they may have spent weeks/months on. The initial reaction by some when Binkyuk nerfed PMs a few years ago by adding divine/fire damage vulnerabilities was that now they were exceedingly weak and almost useless... well we know that was wrong... they continued to be one-man wrecking crews, and were generally the last to fall. Generally players' reaction to nerfs are extreme overreaction in order to make their unhappiness heard (e.g. "worthless" gets thrown around a lot). When I look at the numbers though it seems to fit right... they still have higher AC than most other builds + a bag of other goodies that makes the PM class quite worthwhile still.
yep the good PM builds are still good. The bad ones are exponentially worse. I lost 15ac off a 73ac summoner build. I guess i could just run around and avoid getting hit i suppose? I don't think i can really even PvE with it anymore. Who wants a free trip to Sacro via ThunderDome in exchange for a book? :) I still only lost 12ac total on my cleric PM's (which don't really have the hp's to take beating like they'll get now) and they seemed to be really the only "trouble" builds. My dex summoner who could get 102ac now only gets 92ac :( what am i to do ? How will is survive with such incredible ac for a toon that can't hit anything (for long). I built them cause the numbers worked with all the pro's and con's . Now not so much. I could rebuild them better i guess but that's kinda boring since i already sunk who know's how many 100's of hours into them :(. *waves for rebuild wand*

Though seriously in light of this nerf. The other vunerabilities should be lessoned aswell. Fire / Divine 10% / 25%
50% divine vunerability is just retarded with the lowered ac . Do other crit immune forms have 50% vunerabilities? If so let me know what they are :twisted:

I could care less either way reallly. I'll just build something else to get nerf'd to mediocrity :lol:

ps. When are we going to be able to use WoF again or should i just wait till everyone stops taking Blindfighting to unpark my 3 40lvl battleclerics who were also not directly but ultimately nerf'd.
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Rufio
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Re: Pale Master Nerf

Post by Rufio »

Alkapwn wrote: Do other crit immune forms have 50% vunerabilities? If so let me know what they are :twisted:
Shifter construct forms, undead forms, and fire elementals all do.
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mining
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Re: Pale Master Nerf

Post by mining »

Lokey wrote:
John wrote:
Lokey wrote:But you did this to my hogre!11!!!!
...
I'll have to build one that can actually hide someday ;) (Without trickery domain cheese!)
what does this have to do with the topic ?!
It's in the commandments. I can post my lame hogre builds anywhere I want. I'm waffling on the trickery now...no, I deleted that thing for being too good for me to enjoy it. I'll dump it in Tep's vault for his birthday :)

Ah, PM. It can do things plenty of other builds can except it has ~PM level/2 more ac, is immune to crits and qualifies for epic spells without meeting other reqs... I kicked bard out of the qualifiers on NS3 for a reason (well mostly the player list being nearly all pali/fighter + bard 4 + pm 10), don't remember why we didn't do that here. Especially when we went on a bender building broken ones in the spring lol.

I don't have book of bad Latin, don't know the class specifics. Doesn't come up on PnP boards that I glance at much, though say Veil Initiate or Incantrix uber-uberness might have something to do with that (it probably loses more caster levels than Eldritch Knight for less than that class gets anyway).

Heres the key rundown:

9/10 Spellcasting, misses a level at 1.

This is equivalent to the AC boost.
A pale master has an instinctive
feel for undead armor. At 4th level and higher, he treats the
undead armor as if its arcane spell failure chance were 10% less.
At 8th level, this reduction improves to 20%.

Else its more or less as is.

Here's the highlights reel of undead armor:

Exoskeleton: This armor is prepared from an undead skeleton.
The armor essentially covers your upper body with a rib
structure, providing protection equal to that of a +2 breastplate
and granting damage reduction 5/bludgeoning.
Vampire Hide: This armor is prepared from a single layer of
vampire skin. Necromantic residue remaining in the vampire hide
keeps the armor pliant and responsive. In addition to providing
the protective qualities of +3 studded leather, vampire hide grants
the wearer damage reduction 5/silver and magic.

So yeah. More casting, less AC. They also get an undead COHORT that can have CLASS LEVELS so overall I'd say that as it was implemented in NSrealm right now is pretty close to it, given that the AC boost doesn't preclude wearing armor too.
Bargeld wrote:Overall, I think most would agree that a pure rogue is probably the worst build on the server.

Lorkar
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Re: Pale Master Nerf

Post by Lorkar »

Yet one more reason to not play. Why spend hours upon hours leveling a toon just to have it kneecapped.
How about getting rid of the ridiculous weapons, I mean come on, who needs a +8 anything? It should be +5 for normal loot drops, +6 for crafted gear and most artifacts and maybe, just maybe +7 for extremely rare artifacts.
When I first started playing NS4 almost 4 years ago I thought cool, it has the maps of 3.5 but it doesnt have the crazy enchanted stuff.
I figured builds would count for more here, well that is still true up to 20, after 20 it is about who has the newest and flashy + bazillion long sword with their named etched on it.
Instead of going around and saying this class is too high in this department and nerfing it to oblivion, maybe the staff should set a AC and AB limit and scale all classes back accordingly.
30 PM's should have the highest AC on the server.
30 SD's should have insanely high hide/MS.
30 WM's should be able hit anything on this server.
30 DwD's should be near impossible to kill.
30 CoT's should deal huge damage.
30 Assassin's should be able to kill ANYTHING it can hit.
30 RDD's should have the highest strength and huge fireballs (was reaching on this one).
30 Shifters should get the best of all of this (just not all in one shape).
30 AA's should be able to hit anything at a distance.
30 Blackguard...Dont know squat about it.
5 Purple Dragon Eater...again dont know diddly about them.
And Harper Scout's should do what they do 1/6th best.
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Alkapwn
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Re: Pale Master Nerf

Post by Alkapwn »

lmao! everyone is ridiculas :lol:
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Bargeld
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Re: Pale Master Nerf

Post by Bargeld »

Lorkar wrote:30 Blackguard...Dont know squat about it.
Give them the best summon... the only other significant things they have:
corrupt weapon (just a divine damage darkflame)
contagion (1x day - weak compared to dirge)
chr bonus to saves (nice, but also mirrored by pallies)
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mining
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Re: Pale Master Nerf

Post by mining »

Harpers actually make a nice addition to a ranger build with BoE, its a free +4 damage to all FE. I'd like to see PDK do THAT.
Bargeld wrote:Overall, I think most would agree that a pure rogue is probably the worst build on the server.

Daltian
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Re: Pale Master Nerf

Post by Daltian »

I have been fighting PM's after the nerf and it still takes an army to down one. AC isn't big as before and you actually hit them sometimes, but since you cant crit them and both PM and their summon are hitting you back. One can't say they are underpowered now.
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Lokey
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Re: Pale Master Nerf

Post by Lokey »

4/5 devs agree about gear inflation and npc stats (especially hitpoint totals). I blame Flailer ;) Also covering all 40 levels, but mostly Flailer.

There's about 2000 player items and 1500 npcs, who wants to rebalance them + spell system?
Tep wrote:I login and there's a dwarf to kill. You can't ask for much more than that.
Alkapwn wrote:NC has the most amazing melee build there is. Its a friggin unstopable juggernaut of pain.

mining
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Re: Pale Master Nerf

Post by mining »

Lokey wrote:4/5 devs agree about gear inflation and npc stats (especially hitpoint totals). I blame Flailer ;) Also covering all 40 levels, but mostly Flailer.

There's about 2000 player items and 1500 npcs, who wants to rebalance them + spell system?
3 cheers for the devs:

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Bargeld wrote:Overall, I think most would agree that a pure rogue is probably the worst build on the server.

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