Pure Barbarians

[Bishop99]

What does everyone think of the new pure barbarians?

I find that they are:
[-]Too undispellably fast
[-]Stronger 'I win button' than a pure fighter
[-]have a very strong aura which is pretty much unsavable, and even with mindblank leaves you weak enough to get out-melee'd
[-]will beat all melee classes given that the barbarian and other meleer have no advantage either way as far as armor type vs damage type goes.

I am very happy that barbarians were made useful in NS4, I am only concerned that the balance is getting out of line with the additions of pure classes, specifically the DC's. If the DC's are desired to be unsavably high on purpose, then I think the other aspects of the pureclass bonuses should be toned down.

Sure the barbarian has a few weaknesses, but they are very few and are easily covered.

It seems to me that when a barbarian is raging- it should be much weaker in some ways, but much stronger in other ways- like the original rage gave minuses to AC.... I think the pure barbiarian should continue on this 'gain but also loose' mentality as far as bonuses go.

My suggestions to balance barbarians while still maintaing usefulness:
[-]Decrease the haste bonus to give 130% movement rate instead of 150%
[-]Give the barbarian a larger decrease in AC while raging
[-]Give the barbarian a decrease to discipline while raging
[-]Perhaps tone down the DC's on the fear and paralyze to allow characters that focus in will/fort + gear a chance to save it.

As far as gameplay goes, my suggestions will do the following:
[-]It will give melee classes a chance vs barbarians toe-to-toe
[-]It will allow a fighter with haste to catch a dispelled barbarian without haste, but still lets barbarian have the speed advantage if BOTH are dispelled, and still maintains the equality when both the fighter and barbarian are hasted
[-]It will allow a player that focuses in fort/will the option of sacrificing discipline gear to wear saving throw gear to give them a possibility of making a save vs the barbarian.

[Nyeleni]

AC on a barbarian is already low, decreasing that won't make it any more vulnerable.
Besides the high fear aura dc is gained by getting epic skill focus intimidate (even skill focus?). A skill which is absolutely useless in any other way. And if the enemy is of the same lvl or higher it will always save against it...
Lowering discipline? Strength and rage shouldn't make it vulnerable to kd and disarm imo...
To fight a barbarian you have to bring some casters along or just flank it with different kinds of weapons.
1v1? If you play your cards right, a lvl40 fighter has a good chance beating it. Although the barbarian stands a good chance too. I think it is balanced.

Haste might be an issue... Maybe if the barbarian is raging it has to attack instead of being able to use the speed to the greatest advantage... It is actually only logic that this class if faster than others imo.

But then again, as Im playing a barbarian Im biased towards this class, as are you, against it, fighting it...

[LinuxPup]

I've assassinated a few with my Assassin...

[disastro]

not sure if its a typo, but the change log indicates that the later barbarian powers add back all of the ac lost through raging and then some.

[MasterYoda]

the pure barb is great. they snould out melee other classes ... thets what the pure class bonouses do for em.

i have never been stunned by the barb token... granted i mainly play a pali sorc with +52 min to all my saves after spells and such.

also u got to see thre weakness of the barb which i wont exploit here ...people need to learn it for them selves.

its a mean build and i look foward to fighting more in the future....

powerful ? yes

unstoppable ? no

learn 2 play

[mgrjebbo]

i find the speed frustrating but thats only because i am fight against one. if i was running around in circles with a pure barb i would love it.

as for the aura, well if your mind immune your mind immune, you shouldnt have any negatives when entering it. Unless ofcourse fear immune and mind immune are different things....

[disastro]

i'm not sure how the fear aura works. my cleric isnt stunned by it but he constantly screams the 'fear' voiceset, which imo is one of the most annoying parts of fighting a barb. i also get the floating skulls.

do all the barbarian speed buffs stack? pure bonus march + innate + haste?

[LinuxPup]

Fear immunity should definitely block it... let me know if mind immunity does too... because if it doesn't, it should.

[Bishop99]

mindblank doesn't stop the decreases the aura gives you

The speed is a problem- 150% undispellable is not balanced with the other melee classes. you can reduce this to 130% and still have barbarians as the fastest, excluding monks.

Yes i know you can grease + the slowing bigsby's, but if someone can do that there is also another person who can gust of wind and dismissal or FOM.

[-BannyD-]

i dont really see a problem with the pure barbarian. my inkling tells me the balance lies with a certain scythe than the pure barb items itself...

how much speed does the haste spell give? 50%? if so barbarians run at 160% speed....10% faster than a 'normal' toon hasted.

barb speed + speed token + rage haste do not stack....the speed token and haste act towards the same type of speed. if they did stack then it would be a problem as he would be running at 180% speed...rivaling monks.

as for the barb roar token being > warrior stomp....huh? Its an easy save...spellcraft adds to the ease of that save.

this sums it up nicely...

powerful ? yes

unstoppable ? no

no, its not at all unstoppable...

[Bishop99]

I didn't say anywhere that barbarians have higher than 150% moverate which would imply the stacking of movement increases...

They have 150% that doesn't get dispelled like anyone else with 150% moverate.

they are equal to someone hasted, but everyone else can have their haste stripped in some way.

I thought NS4 was never going to have boots with haste- but it seems to me that barbarians are getting them.

[LinuxPup]

I've fought and won against a high level pure fighter and a high level pure barbarian at the same... of course I was a cheesey bard/pm, so I had the upper hand.

[Nyeleni]

I didn't say anywhere that barbarians have higher than 150% moverate which would imply the stacking of movement increases...

They have 150% that doesn't get dispelled like anyone else with 150% moverate.

they are equal to someone hasted, but everyone else can have their haste stripped in some way.

I thought NS4 was never going to have boots with haste- but it seems to me that barbarians are getting them.

Hm, monks already did... I still don't see a problem there. You know how to beat a barbarian. Of course you will need to get more crystals soon .

[P. Fricebottle]

[-]Too undispellably fast

I just might have to log onto minielvis's account and beat the crap out of you with Sandy so I get to see you post about Pure Monks being "Too undispellably fast".

[Blystos Re]

Yes i know you can grease + the slowing bigsby's, but if someone can do that there is also another person who can gust of wind and dismissal or FOM.

Just as there could be another person who could just as easily Mords to strip those added buffs. You're basically saying that if you can't beat the barbarian and their support alone that it's not fair. So I guess the lesson there would be not to go up against a group like that alone?

Make some friends so you'll have someone to back you up.