Purist Wizard/Sorceror Ideas

[spinsane]

The pure caster is one of the most difficult things to balance since so much of their character's effectivity is dependent upon spell selection. What kind of benefits should befall a pure caster? They don't need stronger IGMs or Bigbys, what they need are more options and useful lower level spells- as well as non-gimp DCs.

Spell DCs are calculated as such-
10 + Spell Level + Ability Modifier + Focus.

Saving throw vs Spells is calculated as such-
Non-Epic Levels * .6 or .4 or .5 (pending on classes) + Epic Levels/2 + spellcraft/5 + ability modifier + item bonuses + additional magical bonuses and class/feat bonuses.

Most spell effects cap somewhere at level 25 (NS has some of these uncapped, which is nice). When considering this, 25 levels of wizard vs 40 levels of wizard function at the same spell potency (in NS, this applies for all non direct damage spells). They can get the same DCs, same effects, same damage- the only thing they cant do is penetrate SR, which is really only an issue for PvM.

a level 17 wizard can potentially have the same DCs as a level 40.

Any character can cross-class for Spellcraft for an extra +8 vs spell saves. All epic levels get a +1 per every 2 levels to all saves, + they get 12/8 in non-epic levels. Because this is a high magic server, it isn't unrealistic for save stats to get a walking +8 magical bonus. That can give you an easily acquired save vs spells of 35. At the cost of NO feats. A Wizard must spend 13 feats (forgoing any epic spells or auto-quicken) to get a DC that is remotely close to a 40% chance of success in a single school for level 9 spells only (most of which aren't all that great). If Items are considered an additional +4 universal is pretty standard. Also, Bard Song makes it pretty impossible to cast a single offensive spell.

There are no items that improve DCs nor do DCs improve naturally with level. They take LOADS of feats, at which point non-focused spells are useless even against the weak saves of an opponent.

There is only benefit and no opportunity cost to multi-classing a wizard. You get your spot/listen/discipline/tumble/HiPs/Improved Evasion/Flat Foot AC/Divine Grace/UMD at no penalty to the effectivity of your spells.

Like meleers switching up their equipment against an opponent, a wizard chooses spells based upon the weak-side saves of a target they wish to exploit. Evocation for Strength-based and Necromancy for Dexers, illusion/enchantment for higher HP- etc etc etc.

The only spells that will have potency are damage dealing spells, most of which have 1/2 damage saves. Even those that dont, will always have a lower DPS than any meleer. Part of the point of a wizard is that they are incredibly weak in every way, but compensate for it by using spells to, in a way, build their character dynamically. They can emulate a fighter with tensor's, they can cast invisibility instead of hiding, they can haste and keep up with a barbarian- etc, but they are always limited by the quantity of spells they can cast and the spells that they have prepared to cast (or in the case of a sorceror, what spells they have chosen). Also, that they have to spend a round or a half to cast a spell provides any opposition a chance to counter with a KD, sneak attack, or hide. A pure wizard can't run with monk-speed or HiPs out or resist with high discipline, they will get an opportunity to cast about one spell. Mords is almost a prerequisite before any subsequent spell can be useful (if you're lucky enough for mords/dispel to take death ward, FoM or energy buffer).

To keep true to the concept of a wizard relying on spells without ANY STANDING EFFECTS, certain key spells need some touches for a purist, and DCs need to be determined alternatively to promote pure casters.

With all of the above as a rationale, as a bonus for ONLY pure wizard/sorceror, bonuses to be applied epically, assuming all of these are possible changes (I know for a fact that they are)-

[*]All spells will have the equivalent spell level of level 10 spells (so level 1 spells aren't completely useless, even with SF- usually the spell effect by itself is enough for it to be useless 0_o, with the exception of Grease, which doesn't have a saving throw for speed reduction).

[*]DCs will increase by 1 for every 2 epic levels (In compensation for saves increasing by 1 for every 2).

[*]Uncap and scale spells that a wizard casts on himself, IE- Expeditious retreat improving by 5% per every 5 levels of epic, clairvoyance providing additional spot/listen per level to caster only (the spell acts as normal when cast on others). Stoneskin/Premonition enhancement scaled to function practically in PvP.

[*]Silenced spells ignore spellcraft saving throw bonus.

[*]Cast on self True Seeing/Sanctuary provide their stock bonuses but with greatly reduced durations (such that they would only be practical if cast directly in combat, such as 1 round + 1/4 levels). Compare a short duration Sanctuary to HiPs, an extremely limited, costly, and not as effective way out of combat- but some compensation for not taking SD.

[*]Lesser, Greater Spell Breach and Dispel altered to target specific groups of spells. Such as, lesser dispelling stripping FoM and Haste, while greater dispelling strips Death Ward and True Seeing. Gust of Wind removing significantly lower level bard song/curse song.

[*]Have some spells have an effect even on fail, similar to Negen Burst. IE, bestow curse could sap saving throws as could enfeeblement and the intel draining spell.

[*]Scale and increase caps on some of the neater non-damage based spells such as Enervation.

[*]Great Intelligence/Charisma could increase the number of spell slots as if they were increasing that particular stat by 2. DCs increased by 1 for every 4 taken.

If "Real" DCs are a problem for some of the one-hit-kill buttons, like Hold Monster or (old) Stone to Flesh, durations could be greatly reduced as a result so that they aren't too strong in a PvP, but a very temporary option (or in the case of hold monster, have it provide the held target with damage immunities so that they are more difficult to kill while being held, as a result they are only temporarily removed from combat for a short duration).

These are just some ideas to allow a Purist to inefficiently emulate their multi-class options and benefit from their purity as well. Good ol' KD or Stunning fist will still WTFPWN them.

[Binkyuk]

Good stuff. I really like the idea of silenced spells not giving spellcraft bonus to save.

True True Sight might be a bit over the top. Wiz/Sorcs are actually already one of the more capable classes against SDs because they can throw AOE spells at them without having to see them.

[cRaZy8or5e]

Wow. Lol, that analysis should be published somewhere.

Only one possible oversight and/or point you made that I might dispute.

When considering this, 25 levels of wizard vs 40 levels of wizard function at the same spell potency (in NS, this applies for all non direct damage spells). They can get the same DCs, same effects, same damage- the only thing they cant do is penetrate SR, which is really only an issue for PvM.

There are player races that have an inherent SR 45 which even with epic spell penetration, a 25th lvl caster will have slim odds (30%?) at penetrating their SR.

Otherwise you've got some great arguments. I haven't played an arcane caster yet, but there are some things out there that have made me worried, ie evocation losing its bigsbies, the changes to bigsby themselves, etc. etc.

Against a high dex bard/sd with imp evasion, their reflex saves will be high enough that they'll save on the majority of AOE spells thrown at em. I've been curious about taking epic spell focus divination (which would make clairvoyance/clairaudience +20 to spot and listen), but I don't know how effective power word kill is in pvp, especially if the wiki is correct and it will only affect targets with 300 hp or less. That rules out the majority of 40's on the server.

The thing that casters do get on this server that they didn't receive on others are uber tough summons. I guess I'll have to make the paradigm shift away from evocation or necro focused casters to something new . Hmmmm conjuration seems to be the school de jour

[Nyeleni]

Actually PWK and PWStun might be really worthwile if you cast them at the right moment .

Other than that, I agree, very impressive analysis.

[Binkyuk]

As Flailer would say - Good signal to noise ratio.
(Bet no one even remembers this. I was so proud...)

[disastro]

i really like the bit where all spells have dcs as if they were level 10.. so your 3rd level spells would have a dc of 10 + 10 + int + feats instead of 10+3+int+feats. opens up a LOT of useful stuff.

exactly the kind of thing that fits a pure class... building on their strengths to make a great version of that class.

[Queltor]

A good analysis overall. Several of the suggestions could be used for pure clerics as well.

Some comments:

a level 17 wizard can potentially have the same DCs as a level 40.

This is true only if the 40 didn't take any Great INT/WIS/CHA feats.
It's possible for a level 40 to have a natural 40 (+15) INT/WIS/CHA. The level 17 has no chance of matching those DCs.

Any character can cross-class for Spellcraft for an extra +8 vs spell saves.

If only this were true. Any character can cross-class Spellcraft for +4 spell saves (with 20 ranks). You can't get the +8 unless Spellcraft is a class skill.

[*]Great Intelligence/Charisma could increase the number of spell slots as if they were increasing that particular stat by 2. DCs increased by 1 for every 4 taken.

I'm guessing you mean in addition to what it already does. Every two Great INT/WIS/CHA already increases spell slots and DCs.

Are you suggesting Great XXX VIII should give the standard +8 to stat, +6 to DCs (instead of +4), and additional spell slots as if you'd increased the stat by 16?

[disastro]

it would be nice if the great int feats were more useful in ways beyond what they already give. at this point with respect to save dcs its kinda throwing good money after bad (10 feats for +5 dc... yuck.)

[Nyeleni]

At least acknowledge Binkyuk's work too, those ideas are more or less as nice as the first post in this thread .
Although to be truthful Im happy with my mage... I don't think they need an improvement. At least not as needed as other pure classes, like rogue or ranger.

[spinsane]

You may not feel that Wizards need a boost, but a pure wizard is pretty much useless in PvP save for 3 spells that will not be comparable in damage output to anything. Additionally in PvM, an Epic wizard performs ultra poorly. The only thing of marginal use after buffing is Tensor's, which isn't even a DC Driven spell (firebrand isn't terrible either).

A good analysis overall. Several of the suggestions could be used for pure clerics as well.

Some comments:

a level 17 wizard can potentially have the same DCs as a level 40.

This is true only if the 40 didn't take any Great INT/WIS/CHA feats.
It's possible for a level 40 to have a natural 40 (+15) INT/WIS/CHA. The level 17 has no chance of matching those DCs.

Any character can cross-class for Spellcraft for an extra +8 vs spell saves.

If only this were true. Any character can cross-class Spellcraft for +4 spell saves (with 20 ranks). You can't get the +8 unless Spellcraft is a class skill.

[*]Great Intelligence/Charisma could increase the number of spell slots as if they were increasing that particular stat by 2. DCs increased by 1 for every 4 taken.

I'm guessing you mean in addition to what it already does. Every two Great INT/WIS/CHA already increases spell slots and DCs.

Are you suggesting Great XXX VIII should give the standard +8 to stat, +6 to DCs (instead of +4), and additional spell slots as if you'd increased the stat by 16?

I meant multi-class for spellcraft. Miss-typed.
A level 17 wizard can have other classes and acquire GI, still capable of having the same DCs (I meant 17 levels of wizard, not a level 17 wizard).

And basically, yes. The amount of spell slots you get from that is only about a couple per level, which isn't all that significant of an advantage. the advantage is suggested to be there because a wizard/sorc has nothing but spells (no standing effects or alternative method of damage output).

[LinuxPup]

Some of these ideas are similiar to what myself and another dev were talking about a week ago... We would definitely like to help the pure mage cause in a balanced way sometime in the future...

[Nyeleni]

You may not feel that Wizards need a boost, but a pure wizard is pretty much useless in PvP save for 3 spells that will not be comparable in damage output to anything. Additionally in PvM, an Epic wizard performs ultra poorly. The only thing of marginal use after buffing is Tensor's, which isn't even a DC Driven spell (firebrand isn't terrible either).
SNIP

Sure, that might be true if you are on your own. In a party however as a supporting character, buffing and using spells like Gust of Wind, I found out that a mage is a huge asset. Although I agree, more variety would be nice...

[cRaZy8or5e]

A well played wizard or sorceror is a killer in pvp. They work better with friends, but even by themselves there are so many different and horrible things you can do to your enemies they really don't need too much tweaking. Otherwise we'll get to read posts about how overpowered they are.

One thing I would not like to see is increasing the DC of all spells to 10 for pure casting classes. You would see the revival of Negative Energy Burst, there are other spells that I don't want to name for fear of people using, well Linux dropped one on everyone in the fighter rumble discussion. Thunderclap. Look it up. There are others out there, especially lower lvl spells that really make a body worried if suddenly they were jumped in potency.

For instance, a simple lvl 1 cleric spell, doom, drops ab, and saves by 2? something like that? With a will save. As of right now a focused imploder can get a possible 48 implode DC, which translats into 34 DC for the doom, provided there is no spell focus in whatever school doom is. Add one to the implode DC 49, and add 9 to doom DC giving it a 43 will save. Suddenly everything on the server is starting to become vulnerable to implode, to include high fortitude builds especially if you add a pure bard curse.

Just my two cents. If you do bump up the DC spell level computation I think it would make pure casters a lot more fun, as stated by spinsane because it would really increase the amount and variety of spells you can cast. However, most spells have variants at higher levels, that imo act to replace the lower level spells.

*shudders* can you imagine a caster running around casting fear on everyone or even something as simple as daze. It would give new life to a lot of different schools however. I get in turns excited and horrified at the prospects.

[disastro]

i'd loove it if the variety of spells and schools you come across were massively increased in this way. suddenly illusion, enchantment, etc are worthwhile. mega fort save wont be enough to save you from everything. its a great boost for the pureclasser.

its a general problem in d&d that most low level spells become useless, reducing action diversity. that and the 'save and nothing happens, dont save and die' kind of spells. Most of these problems are being addressed by 4th edition d&d btw, so its quite an acknowledged issue for high level play.

to balance out a big dc boost it would help to reduce the durations on some of the 'you lose' effects like confusion, fear etc to just a few rounds (not everybody wants to roll a divine gracer.) that way we don't open up a whole legion of Win Buttons (tm). add in a decent secondary effect in the event the target DOES make its save and then everything is useful but not overpowered.

[spinsane]

If you're running a pure caster, everything should be useful. It ultimately doesn't matter what variety of spells a caster has in his arsenal, what matters is how effectively he'll be able to use them. Think about the opportunity cost, if you're using fear then you're not using something else. The point is, if every spell is useful then it gives a caster something to cast other than Bigby 7, grease and IGMs.

A strong fear or hold monster is no different from a dominate monster. Ultimately, you'll only have an opportunity to cast a few spells anyways, a pure wizard treating all spells at level 10 only decreases opportunity costs for lower level spells to make them an option. A pure wizard currently has only level 6 spells (exception of grease) and up to work with, that's about 33% of their spellbook. I win buttons would need reduced durations in PvP, as suggested in the original post.

Lastly, a half wizard can buff just as well as a pure wizard. Their grease is just as good, and their bigbys is very similar, as can their IGMs (even then, a half wizard usually has a more efficient mode of damage output). The wizard CLASS is not useless, but a PURE WIZARD is one of the lesser functional builds in PvP.

Also, I'm not suggesting that priests be touched in anyway, this is specifically focused for arcane purists (IMO implosion is broken anyways, no death ward or spellcraft to save vs it is kinda silly). EVEN if you can have a high DC on doom, does that make it worth casting in place of something else? For a spell like negative energy burst, it isn't going to be auto-success vs a high fort class or someone with constitution. There isn't really a problem with a pure caster necessarily being strong, they would still lose to multi-classed monks and paladins 90% of the time as well as the Barbarian paralyze AOE dealy and the Warlord Rumble.

You can only cast 1 spell at a time, if you make the right decision in terms of a choosing a spell, it should yield some results. If ALL spells are useful, it only increases a caster's option, it doesn't necessarily make the caster more powerful. Again, only a third of their spellbook is useful in PvP and only a couple of spells in that third. If you make all spells more useful, they're still only casting one spell at a time.

As it is, if someone wants to prepare to face a group with a caster in PvP, they just throw on FoM and have some pots ready. They don't have to change their gear, they don't have to alter their approach, the wizard is just a marginal externality in PvP. And with all the extra speed bonuses impure classes can acquire, it isn't like a pure wizard can't be KO'd in a single round anyways.