Return of the "I Win Button"

[P. Fricebottle]

For all the players who remember the days of Wizards and Bigsbies, Bigsbies Crushing Hand became known as the "I Win Button." Chances to escape it were near to nil and it became a sore spot in PvP. The only people sad to see it go were the Wizards using it, even then, it was overdue.

If we're aiming to get rid of "I Win Buttons," such as Devastating Critical on the side of Melee and, before it was reintroduced to the server revised, Time Stop on the side of Casters, why are we introducing a new one?

I understand Balance is a tedious thing to maintain, even the slightest tip causing a disturbance. The Balance must be distinguished from lack of skill, however, lest the Develepors be run back and forth to make up for mistakes made by the players. However, this makes no sense.

There has got to be a better way to go about fixing things. And implementing an I Win Button is definitely not one of them, it will only break things more.

I'm not one to complain and not make suggestions. Allowing Devastating Critical is not an option, replacing one I Win Button with another is arbitrary at best, if not retarded. Warlord's Rumble is a good idea, just overpowered.

One of the things Fighters lack is Spot and Listen. This makes for a large weakness to Shadowdancers, a very common build. I'd suggest lowering the DC for Warlord's Rumble a tad bit, but the main point is to lower the duration. Shadowdancers currently are the most survivable build, if opening a major weakness for them against a build not so survivable, I think it'd make for an excellent balance.

So heres my suggestion. Whenever a Fighter enacts his Warlord's Rumble, if a character in Stealth Mode fails the save, they make a loud thump as they hit the ground. They must make a save of their Move Silently vs. Warlord's Rumble DC. If they fail, they are removed from Stealth Mode while on the ground. If possible, to imitate this you could just give them a huge penalty to Hide and Move Silently. Thats my idea, if anyone else has a better idea for a Check please speak up.

Fighters need an improvement, but the server does not need a sore spot such as an I Win Button to resurface to meet the needs of the Fighter.

[Gornickthy]

I must admit that I agree to a major extent here. The DC caps for some of the builds are getting way out of control. Take a well built HiPSer as an example. It is almost, if not completely, impossible to spot/listen one for combat purposes. Wizards have lost their edge when it comes to their DC's in my opinion. The "I win button" was a bit overpowering for wizards, but now they are all but useless regardless of the arguments stating otherwise. Disarmers are running around that are almost impossible to stop with maxed out skills. AC's are way above ridiculous in that unless you have uber ab's you can't hit anything. There was once a day when the mighty PM was the major complaint on the server. Now the PM has been taken down a few notches and other builds have been given supreme power.

It just seems the balance is becoming less of an issue and pure uberness is taking over. Not a complaint, since if it gets out of hand there are always other servers to go to, but this is rather just a mild observation as a player of several years here. In the end it is still just a game.

[LinuxPup]

Wizards are one of the few builds that worried me in PvP.... and Sorcerers are even worse. My bard could (and often did) own pure fighters and barbarians, but sorcerers and wizards were the bane of Jekyl.... negative energy burst, maximized igms, mords, bigby's.... I was often affected even with maxed out discipline and tumble by different types of bigbys.

Mages have their own knockdown token for pure fighters... its called Great Thunderclap.

[P. Fricebottle]

Great Thunderclap can be saved against. And my problem isn't Pure Fighters being too strong, my problem is Pure Fighters having an I Win Button. Theres many ways to kill a Pure Fighter, they're not all too survivable.

[LinuxPup]

It's not an I Win button... maybe 2 or 3 pure fighters spamming it is, but a single fighter should have to wait 4 minutes before they can use it again... and they only get 1 round to hit you while you're down. They may have help others to hit you while you're down, but where are your allies? We'll continue to see how pure fighters are being used and determine if they need a change.

Stunning fist is just as bad... no immunity except Tough as Bone and some polymorph shapes... 3 rounds, and its possible to get your DC *really* high.

You'd be surprised how many pure fighters have really bad will and reflex saves... I've fought some pure level 40s with an 18 will.

[-BannyD-]

I must admit that I agree to a major extent here. The DC caps for some of the builds are getting way out of control. Take a well built HiPSer as an example. It is almost, if not completely, impossible to spot/listen one for combat purposes. Wizards have lost their edge when it comes to their DC's in my opinion. The "I win button" was a bit overpowering for wizards, but now they are all but useless regardless of the arguments stating otherwise. Disarmers are running around that are almost impossible to stop with maxed out skills. AC's are way above ridiculous in that unless you have uber ab's you can't hit anything. There was once a day when the mighty PM was the major complaint on the server. Now the PM has been taken down a few notches and other builds have been given supreme power.

It just seems the balance is becoming less of an issue and pure uberness is taking over. Not a complaint, since if it gets out of hand there are always other servers to go to, but this is rather just a mild observation as a player of several years here. In the end it is still just a game.

ehh i kind of disagree with some of these....i have a build template that can spot anything...imo its harder to get an uber hide/ms than spot/listen..

disarm is the same way, none of my strength toons will ever be disarmed (at 40)...dex toons can be disarmed but its still very unlikely.

mages are still great, you just have to be creative and not rely on the same spells all the time..mages 1v1 are the hardest to kill

ACs being rediculous are a result of earth genasi and githzerai pretty much...also the fact that the gear on this server is skewed to give a toon naturally higher AC than AB in ratio, aka the gear makes it much easier to get a high AC than high AB.


i agree with linux pup here though...the 4min/rumble is a huge hinderance to the pure fighter than before...i dont play a pure fighter but on pure barb i wish i could get the bloody roar more than 1/3mins...

and aye, ive saved vs the rumbles before the minor DC change...so now its more frequent (though still rare-ish). its ahrder to save against than the pure barb item IMO..but it also has a longer recharge now so alls well.

[Fezz]

see my other post assassins MAY be getting a dc 50 29/30 assassin lvls required - no spell craft to your fort save insta kill/win button soon - you going to get upset by that as well ?

and as linux says u can get like 60+ dc stun fist if u build correctly and thats 3 rnds and been around the whole time ? never seen anyone complain about that.

[Lorkar1]

Maybe get a DC of 50? That was attainable before any work was even being thought about with Assassins. DC 52 was the highest I could come up with before and still hit the broad side of the barn. And before anyone can complain about the Death Attack their are at least half dozen ways to prevent it.

[Gornickthy]

and as linux says u can get like 60+ dc stun fist if u build correctly and thats 3 rnds and been around the whole time ? never seen anyone complain about that.

Oh we have complained, but rather listen to our complaints we were told to "build better builds" and then we had the PM nerfed as a result (ofcourse the PM being nerfed was not a result, but still a sore spot lol).

Maybe the monk should be nerfed since the PM got put on the chopping block. That has been the one class that has been waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy over balanced for a long time.

[de_slider]

Personally, I believe and think that the Dev team has done a fantastic job of maintaining a balance. The only ones who tend to complain are those who have made a build strictly because of it being over powered or one that gets their butt handed to them regularly by a specific class.

The word "nerf" is also over used. It's one thing to be brought into a balance it is something else to get nerfed. Drow at one time were nerfed. When their Drow Darkness was completely changed from a true Darkness where Ultra Vision was needed (which any class could buy in Avendell) to that of a 20% concealment, while keeping Drow at ECL3. That changed the premiss of the race.

PM's were brought into an alignment. They are now 50% vulnerable to Divine and 25% to fire and forced to become more undead by becoming evil. Which is no different than the AI of NS4 being changed so that mobs now move towards Drow Darkness to investigate. If a PM's immunities to Critical Hits along with a host of other things they are immune to were removed. That would be a "nerf".

One of the things Fighters lack is Spot and Listen. This makes for a large weakness to Shadowdancers, a very common build. I'd suggest lowering the DC for Warlord's Rumble a tad bit, but the main point is to lower the duration. Shadowdancers currently are the most survivable build, if opening a major weakness for them against a build not so survivable, I think it'd make for an excellent balance.

Fighters do not "lack "Spot and Listen". It is in their nature not to have those 2 skills. If they did they wouldn't be pure class fighters. -Slave- D'Beebop_a_Lulu would agree with you 100%. She has learn how to use that Warlord's rumble against SD's in a way that scares the be-geebers out of them. Ask a few TSS or the MD formally known as Peilo. Mind you Lulu did/does get her butt handed to her 99% of the time by SD's. That is Lulu's weakness.

As a pure fighter Lulu wept many a tear into her tea when she saw her Warlord's Rumble "nerf" so she couldn't spam it. She would also cry for joy when she was up against another fighter that had a higher DC than she had and who could KD her with the token. Which usually resulted in Lulu having to respawn. Now she is able to survive that first KD and get back on her feet to fight. (Pro's and Con's)

Now ask those same SD's who have handed Lulu her butt what their chances are of surviving an encounter with -Slave- Snipper an Arcane Archer, then you will hear a totally different song. The tide turns . SD's do more running than attacking and many have had to respawn. That's the nature of Snipper.

The balance the Dev's try to maintain is that for every race, class, pure class or combo build, there is a counter to it. That means when certain classes and races come together in a one on one PvP situation, there could be a battle royal or a wipe-out. 99.9% of the time a pure barbarian/fighter going against a SD will lose. 99.9% of the time a pure monk going against a pure barbarian/fighter will lose. Unless the monk has one heck of a "Stunning Fist". even then it is doubtful that the monk could do much damage.

The Dev's have done one heck of a job at keeping the balance. PvP, even though there are many solo encounters, is now designed to be fought in teams of various builds. Counter builds to counter other builds. When 12 players from various factions, which included, SD, Pure Fighters, PM's, Bards, Monks can be held off by 4 (I'll repeat that) BY FOUR slaves, that says something to the Dev's. Yes they got 3 of 7 relics. But that was all they got.

Each faction raiding had Faction based job abilities as well to boost themselves and give themselves that little extra "ummph". While the Salves have non. On average, to beat a Slave "they" have to be 2 or 3 on one. Unless, you have a pure fighter going against a SD etc.. Team work with lots of battle tactic practice will make any group of PvP'ers look good.

The balance is there. You have to find it when you make your builds. It is most certainly there.

[Alkapwn]

I'm in total agreement with De_Slider. It is teamwork that always wins a battle. 1v1 pvp battles can often be called even before they take place.
Gornick???Monks nerfed? U must be kidding!!

[cRaZy8or5e]

As usual De's eloquence far exceeds anything i could have written. I do believe that when fighter's had 3 rumbles to spam it was almost an I win button (if you didn't consider a sneak with a ranged weapon, or a pure barbarian's roar, or any number of spells that can be cast by any caster to attk their weak will and reflex saves, thunderclap is a great one, hammer of the Gods is another underused spell). Once they changed it to what it is now, I believe that things are in balance again.

[Gornickthy]

I'm in total agreement with De_Slider. It is teamwork that always wins a battle. 1v1 pvp battles can often be called even before they take place.
Gornick???Monks nerfed? U must be kidding!!

I was kidding. Just about any monk that gets caught ends up dead. They just hardly ever get caught, and the rest of the time they are used for cheese builds. It was just an example of the ever rising stats, abilities, ac's, ab's, and dc's. So some people do not like to hear the truth. I really could care less. The facts are the facts.

And if you do not consider a 50% vulnerability to a damage type and another 25% vulnerability to another nerfing then you live in a sad sheltered world. That is total nerfing. There was very little balance put in there. So they are immune to crits. That has been the main complaint from day one. So now they are easier than ever to take down. I would like to see some penalties put on the RDD. The RDD should have 50% vulnrability to cold and 25% vulnrability to electricity or even acid. It makes sense, and fits their class but do you see that happening? NO!!!

I can admit that it I was in your shoes I would probably sing the same song. It is easy to put other people's perceptions down when they do not effect you. Well, I for one play out of MA and have VERY few PM builds, and I see the fault in PM nerfing. If anything the PM's other abilities should have had DC increases so they actually work. That would have made for a server wide "WA WA WA WA."

[Blystos Re]

[Gornickthy]

LOL... half the time I make these arguments that's the exact reaction I am looking for!!!