Spell Changes for Epic Balance.

[Binkyuk]

be careful what you wish for Flailer...

right. should have posted this a long time ago.

first, sum up what we have now. i'm only going to focus on DCs vs saves and damage vs HP. cross combinations of DC vs AC and skills is much more fraught.

pre-epic:
base saves ramp up at 1/2 levels or 1/3 levels.
base spell DCs ramp up at 1/2 levels (for spell level).

stat boosts pre-epic are difficult to factor in, but given the following:
almost no one boosts CON (edit: on the character sheet).
almost every caster boosts their casting stat (edit: on the character sheet).
reflex and will saves are easily targetable (it's generally obvious when someone is a dexer (don't use reflex) or a caster (don't use will)), the only save that is used on everyone is fort (for implosion, wail, wilting, bigbies etc).
gear (and book) based stat boosts are common and balanced.

i'm going to assume that spell DC also increases by +1/8 levels from stats and that saves don't.

gear based boosts to specific saves are roughly +1/5 levels.

i consider the pre-epic save feats versus the pre-epic focus feats balanced.

so we get:
saves: +1/2 levels +1/5 levels.
spells: +1/2 levels + 1/8 levels.
pretty neatly balanced really, considering the efects of failing a save are generally much more catastrophic at higher levels.

direct damage ramps up by +1d6/level, which is generally in line with HP, remembering that the caster will be gaining HP too, so will get more casts.


post-epic:
saves ramp up uniformly at +1/2 levels.
base spell DCs do not ramp up at all.

the same assumptions for stat boosts also hold at epic, so we get:

saves: +1/2 levels + 1/5 levels.
spells: +1/8 levels.

direct damage doesn't increase at all.


proposed solution:

as we can see we're missing +1/2 levels from spell DCs. the obvious fix is to add:
epic DC increase of (caster level - 20)/2

for a pure caster this gives:
spells: +1/2 levels +1/8 levels

(if we want to make it a bit more multiclass friendly, tweak the constant 20 to 18 or so, no lower).

damage is more of a problem. as flailer says you get all spells by 20, so the current system of damage capped based on spell level can't really work without unbalancing it at low or high character levels.
basically with a few exceptions the scheme goes as follows:
dN per caster level with a cap (10 for level 3, 15 for level 5, 20 for level 6, 25 for level 8, ? for level 9).

i suggest we scale damage based on caster level AND spell level:
so we want a level 9 spell to scale so that it does double the damage at 40 that it did at 20, meanwhile we want lower level spells to scale, but more slowly so that they're not so competitive.
ideally we want a system that scales evenly, but i believe that this can't be done without messing up pre-epic balance, so i suggest:
damage = as spell description + (caster level - 20ish)*(spell level/9)*d6
so a level 40 wilting would do 25d8 + 17d6 = ~172
while a level 40 fireball (or call lightning (ptooe)) would only do 10d6 + 6d6 = ~56
a level 40 igms (i believe) would do 20d6 + 13d6 = ~115.5
if we alter meteor swarm to have a cap of 35d6 or so...
then a level 40 meteor swarm would do 35d6 + 20d6 = ~192.5

of course we have to remember how maxing affects this (empowering should be fine because it's still random, just x1.5)
a level 40 maxed igms would do exactly 198 (spread proportionally between targets, but with no save, sounds good)
a level 40 maxed firebrand would do exactly 156
this doesn't seem too unreasonable. maxing is *slightly* nerfed due to the fact that extra damage is dependent on spell level, so a maxed IGMS only gains level 6 extra damage, not level 9. personally i consider this a good thing.

note that this applies only to instant damage dealing spells. spells that deal damage over time (like Storm of Vengeance) last longer at epic, allowing them to deal more damage that way. also spells whose primary role is a disabling or death effect (Finger, Destruction etc) don't need changing because their primary effect is usually boosted by the DC changes.
while i've focused on wiz/sorc spells this should apply neatly to druid and cleric offensive spells too assuming they're balanced to begin with.

[watchwood]

It's an interesting take on the system, though I think your assumption on balanced druid/cleric spells may be flawed. I must admit I can certainly see where you're coming from.

[Nemesis Revised]

there are some parts i'd contend with but i like the general sentiment of this post. the more epic levels there are, the spells dcs should at least go up a bit. this would encourage making purer casting classes for mages, clerics, druids.

maybe make it a strict requirement: additional dcs start coming up when the caster class has made 30 levels so far.

[P. Fricebottle]

almost no one boosts CON.

Well, I read half of it and this is about the only part I have to comment on. A LOT of people boost Constitution, I don't know where you're coming from. Constitution is the most useful, because it helps every class. I mean, come on. With Maximized Endurance you can get either an addtional +2 or +3 to your Constitution modifier. Thats an additional +3 HP/per level. At level 40 thats another 120 hp (80 HP if only +2 but chances are you'll probably get it to +12 anyway). The highest belt is +7 Con, but good luck getting that. You can get the other +1 (or +2 wether you have a +5 or +6 Belt) from job or subrace.

[Binkyuk]

almost no one boosts CON.

Well, I read half of it and this is about the only part I have to comment on. A LOT of people boost Constitution, I don't know where you're coming from. Constitution is the most useful, because it helps every class. I mean, come on. With Maximized Endurance you can get either an addtional +2 or +3 to your Constitution modifier. Thats an additional +3 HP/per level. At level 40 thats another 120 hp (80 HP if only +2 but chances are you'll probably get it to +12 anyway). The highest belt is +7 Con, but good luck getting that. You can get the other +1 (or +2 wether you have a +5 or +6 Belt) from job or subrace.

nono. obviously people wear belts and cast Endurance, but this is what i meant when i said that gear based stat boosts are common and balanced 'cos a caster will also wear a cloak and cast eagles. i mean raw stat boosts at level up.

[Flailer]

Thanks for the analysis Binkyuk - good signal to noise there.

We've debated along those lines internally too and will probably implement some DC/damage scaling on levelup for pure casters (or maybe just on caster levels - dunno).

Have to be careful as you go up though since you have to factor in Auto Quicken, which allows you to double your damage output per round. Doing that can get you a chance for 400+ points of damage per round. Nastiness. But, considering a fighter with a large weapon could be smacking out 400 points of damage in a round too, it might be on parity. The difference is, the fighters damage is going to be of a (mostly) resistable type whereas the IGMS, horrid wilting, etc damage is going to be unresistable. So, you can't have those scale up quite as much.

Some nice bonuses for pure classes coming down the pike though.

[CrazyJ]

The difference is, the fighters damage is going to be of a (mostly) resistable type whereas the IGMS, horrid wilting, etc damage is going to be unresistable.

Saves, Evasion, etc. make most mage spells resistable.

You could also take the opportunity to add more items with elemental resistance beyond a + to saves or 10% resistance. All that carries actual % reduction right now is armor.

[Flailer]

Armor and shields both carry elemental immunity. And, for some of the higher level gear, to pretty substantial amounts...

[watchwood]

That would be a nice addition, you could assign each element to an item type the way to you with stats.

[CrazyJ]

Best I've seen is 25% on level 25 gear.

Shields give far too much benefit already, I don't want to see them boosted any farther. If anything, they should be downgraded a bit.

Cloaks and amulets are the best bet for boosted elemental immunities. Non-casters have only Wisdom (will save)/natural AC amulets available The Natural AC and Will save boosts are pretty handy, but the AC could also be combined with elemental resists to add some variety and give them a bit of choices. Cloaks are even more so... if you're not a bard, sorc, or cha-based smiter (Cleric/Pally/BGuard) the only decent cloaks are + saves vs fire/cold/elec. Relatively useless gear, and I think there's only one or two planar cloaks.

[Nemesis Revised]

i agree that caster spells can go through. but i think we should make it clear. mostly its level 9 mage, cleric, and druid spells that can go through. the rest, have lower dcs or are easily shrugged off.


by the time the caster is out of juice, melees can keep going on. as far as i can tell, casters can still last though as long as they keep their summons alive. but being summon-oriented isnt the only thing casters should be right? coz there's alot of other spells that should be fun to play


though i'd like to say that the work on summons is pretty much a perfected aspect of development. thanks

[Cluster]

Why not throw in some equpiment that resists magical damage? A shield with a bit lower stats in other areas, such as...

Isaac's Bane
+4 AC Shield
25% Magical Immunity
25% Magical Immunity
25% Physical Damage Vulnerability

With something like this you could let the mages have their nastiness bringing them up on par with a melee, and the melee's have the option to protect themselves from mages, at the cost of more damage from a melee.

Or

Amulet of Warding
Shield(10) 1 Use/Day

Snubs missle damage spells, but at a loss of the wisdom and ac. Though its possible to item swap to null that (no different than ammy of power), maybe it could be scripted that on dequip of the ammy, the Shield is instantly debuffed.

[Flailer]

There's already some gear out there that casts Shield 1/day...

[MasterYoda]

I think the trade off if fair.

if someone is willing to take 40 levels of wiz or sorc then I think that hell yeah they should be able to take out a multiclassed fighter/rough/whatever.

40 levels in one class means u have perfected that art. u are a caster.

even more so yes a fighter can and will keep dishing out damage. way after the spells are gone and the summon has fallen.

not to mention there sheer amount of hp llows them to keep sucking down the heal pots as the damage continues.

once the spells are gone and the summon is defeated then the caster is a couple of kds away from defeat ( this is considering that the caster is ure not hipsed out. or have monk to finish them off. )even from the beginning they are 2 crits from death.

dealing 400 a round would be fair ..... for a level 40

same token I do feel this is drasticly needed for pvm more than anything.

curently pvp mages sit near the top dominating the casting pvp class. however they do need a ramp up for damage vs mobs.

just my 2 cents