Drow/Duergar change

Nemesis Revised · Post by **Nemesis Revised** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:25 pm

being on the server, and being one of the first to find out about the drow/duergar changes, the devs should look into further balancing out the daze/blind effect.

-3 rounds is too long. a high level drow could probly take on a bit of damage while surviving a daz, but a low level drow, once dazed - is easy pickings regardless it was fighting in pvp or pvm. I'd suggest to make it 1 round or 2 rounds.

-here should be some compromises as well:
- reason? first of all playing an ECL 2 (duergar) and 3 (drow) is tough. you might as well make them ECL -1 (1 for duergar and 2 for drow) if they can be easily be ruined by flare, fireball, delayed blast fireball, searing light, firestorm, flamestrike, sunbeam, and sunburst.

-other alternative compromises: (one or a combination should be considered)

- give drow/duergar clerics a chance to be immune to such daze/blind for drow/duergar clerics with domain such as sun or fire
- make the stat reduction work but allow the character to have a reflex save against being daze/blind
- make characters that are 5 levels higher of a spell level resist such daze/blind. why? well imagine rogues with alot of wands that can just waste the drow/duergar with fireballs or flares? you wouldnt want that would you?
--> level 4 char becomes immune to daze/blind from flare (lvl 0 spell)
--> level 10 char becomes immune to daze/blind from fball (lvl 3 spell)
--> level 18 char becomes immune to daze/blind from dfbal (level 7 spell)
--> level 10 char becomes immune to daze/blind from searinglight(lvl 3 spell)
--> level 20 char becomes immune to daze/blind from firestorm (lvl8/7spell)
--> level 14 char becomes immune to daze/blind from flamestrike (lvl 5 spell)
--> level 20 char becomes immune to daze/blind from sunburst&sunbeam (lvl 8 spell)

MasterYoda · Post by **MasterYoda** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:34 pm

or you could realize that this is a down side and work with it ......

there are lots of things that can be done ....

A suggestion i do have is mabey if the spell is resisted it has no effect since they do after all have SR built into them selves

Nemesis Revised · Post by **Nemesis Revised** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:39 pm

it wont apply though coz duergar dont have SR

lordvan52681 · Post by **lordvan52681** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:42 pm

souldnt svirfs also get this done to them?

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:44 pm

i like the reflex vs blind...to see if you close your eyes before the flash. also casters could get a bonus to the save for so many points in spell craft because you should "know" what they are casting with high lvls of spell craft.

for the record...i only have 2 drow chars. 1 was made dead by the no lightning under ground thing.

Nemesis Revised · Post by **Nemesis Revised** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:44 pm

if we are talking about underground races, yes svirfs should get them too. and they're ecl 3. what a pain

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:24 am

The reflex save is a good idea.
As to what the DC should be...

Nemesis Revised · Post by **Nemesis Revised** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:26 am

this is somewhat related to Jester's suggestion.

what if the blind/daze worked only under sunlight? so if its evening, underground, or inside a building, the blind/daze wouldn't work. this somehow limits drow/duergar mobility but it aligns with roleplay.

another suggestion is:
-how bout giving these guys permanent UV-like darkvision? gives them a chance to actually be more darkness-inclined creatures

MasterYoda · Post by **MasterYoda** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:25 pm

Nemesis Revised wrote:this is somewhat related to Jester's suggestion.

what if the blind/daze worked only under sunlight? so if its evening, underground, or inside a building, the blind/daze wouldn't work. this somehow limits drow/duergar mobility but it aligns with roleplay.

another suggestion is:
-how bout giving these guys permanent UV-like darkvision? gives them a chance to actually be more darkness-inclined creatures

These ideas are awesome.....also (Ducks for cover) anyoneelsie should have negetives going underground.....

Make UV negate this effect or something.....

Or make it so they have to cast light

Post by **Binkyuk** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:57 pm

Nemesis Revised wrote:-how bout giving these guys permanent UV-like darkvision? gives them a chance to actually be more darkness-inclined creatures

it's been said before, giving Drow darkness and UV is a bit too suggestive of tactics.

as for svirfneblin, it's not about all underground creatures, it's about creatures that are light sensitive. by a freak of biology deep gnomes, despite living deep underground, do not have sensitive eyes.

Post by **Umpa** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:53 pm

OK, I have a question about this. I have a Deep Gnome character and recently discovered that I can be blinded by spells, but my question to the devs is,

If my spell resistance is so high the spell doesn't even work on me, how can I be blinded?

The way spells work: You get a chance to restist it, then if you fail you make a save for effect.

Now if I resist a bigbies hand it goes away, if I resist any spell I take 0 effect, why should light from a spell be different from heat from a spell? If it didn't work, then it should not have any effect, its equivelant to it never even happening to the character.

Now I'm not talking about relfex save, fort or anything after the spell works, I'm saying for that character that resisted the spell period, there are no effects to apply, such as light because I do not believe you can have an effect from a spell that didn't work.

AE would fall under the same thought, if I resist it, its as if it never happened to the character.

Is this something that makes sense? If the spell failed to apply, why would light the byproduct of the spell apply, that would be like saying it applies always. Which defeats the purpose of having a resist roll on spells.

Thanks
Umpa

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:14 pm

Spell Resistance doesn't work well as a pair of sunglasses or torch goggles.

The magical energy from the spell doesn't hit you, but the light is there just the same.
You don't get burned by a match if you play it safe, but the light from it still hits your eyes just the same.

Post by **Umpa** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:39 pm

Again if the spell has no effect to me, such as its absorbed I wouldnt have light to see, because the spell failed. There are no effects from something that didn't work. Resisted spells are failed spells. Seems pretty straight forward, sure if the resists are low, then they have spell effects, even against a save its still an effect, but if it never happened, then there are no sun glasses needed because there was nothing to see.

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:42 pm

The spell may not hit you, but the spell was still there giving off light.

Celorn · Post by **Celorn** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:54 pm

hmm.

I disagree and agree on some points...

AGREE:

-reflex save for blindness makes sense -- if you make the save, it's as if you turned your head or shielded your eyes in time to not be temp. blinded (or stunned)

-sun and lightning spells are right causing blindness since it would be accompanied by a bright flash, storm of vengeance, strike, etc.. (also should Greater Ruin and Hellball cause blindness too (perhaps for everyone, not just Drow)?)

-any fire spell that has an explosion makes sense since the explosion would bring on a sudden flash of light

DISAGREE:

-any movement decrease doesn't make logical sense - as was pointed out, some spells blind, but don't cause speed changes, blinding alone is powerful enough as-is!

-definately no daze! ...well maybe if you roll a 1 on a reflex save to avoid blindness ;]

-I haven't tested this yet... but I definately feel that not all fire spells should cause blindness (AoE fire spells for example, or small amounts of fire: ie: Flame arrow, burning hands, flame lash, ) - think of a campfire versus a camera flash.... which one blinds you??