Since I always go flapping my jaw about this in general discussion, I think it would be nice to create one central topic in suggestions where everyone can give suggestions.
Basically currently shifters are at low power level. Few shapes have some spells, which aren't that powerful and thus it is melee action that brings home the bacon. Thus issues of melee like AC and AB are very relevant. Of course I don't expect to have AB of your typical buffed cleric build, but I hope to be close behind unbuffed builds like rangers. However the situation is that shifter doesn't come even close. So to keep this systematical, I'll break down the issues into categories and we can all supply suggestions on the matter.
1. AB
2. AC and scalability
3. Weaponry issues
4. Glove issue
5. Diversity of useful shapes
6. Misc
7. Wisdom
1. AB
I noticed yesterday while playing with a barbarian of the same lvl 14, that AB difference between us is staggering. In shapes like minotaur, drow, lizard I had AB of 17 and 18, he had AB of 26. That is a big difference as he hit NS guards all the time, and I did 20% of the time. Generally I have problems hitting things.
Granted, dragon shape AB is decent(a bit below barbarian below) now that it gets +6 weapon, but I'd hate to be reliant on only 1 type of shape.
Let's take something like buffed Azer shape:
24 BAB
8 STR
2 bull str
10 weapon
1 epic prowess
= 45
40 barbarian, he started with 18 STR + 10 from lvls + 4 items + 8 epic rage, +4 from feats = 40 STR
30 BAB
15 STR
1 epic prowess
5 weapon
3 weapon focus + epic
= 54 AB
The difference is huge. 64 AC creature is gonna get hit 50% of the time from the barb, and only on 20s by azer shape. And azer has got +10 AB weapon. Let's look at some shape that wasn't buffed.
Epic Drow:
24 BAB
6 str
2 bull str
1 epic prowess
6 weapon
= 39 AB
Now 38 vs 54 AB is a huge fricken difference. With 38 AB drow is completely useless at high levels. I don't even wanna start calculating AB of unarmed epic shapes like golems, spectre, death slaad lord.
Dragon
24 BAB
19 STR
2 bull str
1 epic prowess
6 weapon
-8 size penalty
= 44
As you can see even dragon has 10 AB less than a barbarian.
Problem is also in scaling. A shape has 22 STR at lvl 13 and 22 STR at lvl 40. This is something changing shape properties won't fix as we can;t make epic minotaur have 36 STR at lvl 21 just so he is good at lvl 40.
That is not to say they don't need a boost, as their AB is unimpressive even when you get them, much less at lvl 40.
2. AC and scalability.
Shifter AC is again problematical from developer standpoint. For instance, a starter shape like wyrmling has around 20 AC when buffed with barkskin. Which is ok at lvl 6 when you get it. It is less OK 10 levels later.
Basically all shapes' AC is nearly constant across all level so it starts as OK AC(though some like minotaur never had OK AC), but ends up sucking. I'd have to say hardly any shape has AC worth something.
Even dragon has: 10 base + 20 natural + 13 dex + 4 tumble + 4 from armor item + 4 from bark skin = 55 AC. I think size penalty applies -8 = 47. Hardly impressive, especially in the light of the fact 13 AB is dex and without multiclassing to barb for uncanny, that AC is lost to all but the opponent you are attacking.(the barb above has 54 AB hitting dragon every time). Others have even less AC.
How does that happen to shifter but not to other classes?
Problem is in scalability. As more epic content is added, the item power level is going up.
Supposed they introduce +5 full gear and a normal character and a shifter switch from +3 set to +5 set. A normal character gets +2 armor +2 natural +2 deflection +2 dodge +2 shield = 10 extra AC.
Shifter gets +2 AC. So as power level goes up, the gap becomes wider and wider.
3. Weaponry issues
To get epic shapes you have to be pure. Druid can't take any extra proficiencies neither can shifter. That means shifter is stuck to using druid weapons. So if I want to get positive damage I can't since I can't use northern light. I also can't get weapon proficiencies like the short sword prof for kobold or something.
Also as best shape is unarmed and this module is high on physical immunities, when fighting a creature with your stock lvl 16 set of armor + shield vs slashing I get 50% 10/- reduced. This means to hit for 10 dmg I have to hit for 40. Would be nice to have elemental damage of some kind.
4. Glove issue
Except for kobold, all shapes have AB based on strength. Gloves are the only item with strength bonus and are the only item not melding. Something should be done about that.
5. Diversity of useful shapes.
Now I don't expect all shapes to be useful at high levels but I'd hate to be limited to dragon and kobold because of above issues of AB and AC.
6. Misc
I think it would be productive if more of the epic shapes melded more than just armor. The 2 highest epic shapes dragon and construct only meld armor with the exception of iron golem. Same goes for death slaad lord which has pathetic stats in addition to this.
7. Wisdom
To get dragon shape, large investment in wisdom is required. But with no monk levels, this becomes a dead stat. There are like 2 shifter abilities that use it, 10 druid 30 shifter build won't be able to get much use out of it's slot and DC increasing value. And even shifter with lots of druid levels won't get much kick out of it, as you can't cast shifted.
So I suggest some kind of improvement in the area of getting more use out of this stat. It's only fair if you dump all attributes in one stat that you get use out of it.
Let's post some suggestions for improvement in those areas.
Shifter Suggestions Thread
Shifter Suggestions Thread
Last edited by Spura on Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Crimson...my humble attempt at reaching godhood.
Bard/fighter/RDD
Bard/fighter/RDD
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Go'f
a potential solution could be to have Focuses (in Transmutation?) increase some of the shape abilities, and maybe a ramping of each shape at level available +5 then again at +10... early shapes should become redundant at high levels but should be usable for a period.
The suggested solution would provide 5 upgrades to the abilities similar to a Blackguard Fiends 5 sources of Summons upgrade.
You could even use the same upgrade +2 to relivant stats and +2 AB and AC (Which becomes +3 factoring in the stat).
I havent played a shifter so I don't know if it would be under or over powerd to allow access to +10 to stats and +15 AB AC, its out there to be considered though.
The suggested solution would provide 5 upgrades to the abilities similar to a Blackguard Fiends 5 sources of Summons upgrade.
You could even use the same upgrade +2 to relivant stats and +2 AB and AC (Which becomes +3 factoring in the stat).
I havent played a shifter so I don't know if it would be under or over powerd to allow access to +10 to stats and +15 AB AC, its out there to be considered though.
-
P. Fricebottle
- Addict
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- Location: Evenshire, OK
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Go'f
From previuos threads about shifters I believe merging gear is a Bioware engine limitation and as such that may not a viable fix.P. Fricebottle wrote:In my opinion all the shifter transformations need is good equipment. That would just solve all the problems, meld it all in.
Unless you make ubber equipment allowable by shifter only, then you introduce other problems (UMD for a start).
Ok now some suggestions from me:
#1 AB and #7 wisdom
Because wisdom is mostly a dead stat, I thought it would be great if upon shifting, shifter received AB bonus of 3 + wisdom modifier / 2. This would nicely narrow the gap between shifter AB and other melee's AB.
More coming later.
#2 AC and item scalability
Well AC on some shapes could need a boost. More on that when discussing shapes.
I found this script:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=sc ... il&id=2315
This script implements proper AC bonus, skill bonus, ability bonus stacking. Ability bonus stacking is currently not needed on NS as there are no multiple item types with same ability bonus.
However I would ask the devs to implement part of his scripts that allows for proper skill bonus stacking.
In current version if I equip my shifter with +5 disc ring, +5 disc ring, +7 disc helm and then shift, my total bonus is +7. So when I shift, my disc skill acutally drops!!! When you add to that the fact that pure shifter has disc as cross class skill, you can see why I'd like to see this changed. Shifter already has 20 less disc(or move silently) as lvl 40 fighter or mage/monk, then he loses 10 extra bonus from items when he shifts. Would really like to see this fixed(the problem is that all skill bonuses are lumped on one item and as such don't stack). I'M FREAKING LVL 30 WITH 25 DISC IN GOLEM SHAPE. And I put every point in it.
#3 Weaponry issues and #4 Glove issue
As mentioned gloves don't meld(which causes shifters to lose 5 STR bonus when shifting) and they have problems with druid/shifter being unable to get any other than druid prof. I think it would be nice if they put in some gloves restricted to shifter that give martial prof. It is a dead slot for shifter anyway, and it would expand available weaponry.
Diversity of Shapes
I think we could achieve greater diversity of used shapes. For starters, most epic II, III, humanoid, ... shapes have around 22 STR which is abysmal.
Therefore I suggest 10 STR 4 DEX 4 AC boost like the one vampire received to epic shapes of wildshape II, epic shapes of wildshape III, epic shapes of humanoid(though better make 10 DEX 4 STR for kobold) and to risen lord and raksasha. I mean cmon, risen lord @ lvl 30 has 32 AC and 31 AB. I can even hit the freaking amazon druids.
Other shapes:
Dire Tiger: Make this travelling shape, add to its hide haste and freedom. At least then it will be used for travelling.
Petrify gaze shapes: need DC fixed
Mind flayer: Could use longer duration on mind shield, now it is like 5 rounds, could use infinite mind blasts. High level shifter receives infinite amount of mind flayers so not having inifinite blasts just annoys as you have to reshift.
Vampire: The boost of +10 STR +4 dex +4 AC made this shape have decent AC, and nice AB compare to other unarmed shapes like medusat and mind flayer. But like medusa and mind flayer and all unarmed shapes it has problems with damage. Frost giant scout takes about 2 damage on average. High quantity of damage resists does that. Making him do some damage at least, even when facing resists, I think it would be nice if vampire had some neg energy damage on fists like 1d6. Or a bit more physical damage. 10+1d6 is something someone is easily immune to.
It also needs its gaze fixed currently it does nothing, even when mobs fail save.
Spectre: If it melded items it would be much better. Has same problems with damage all unarmed shapes have.
Azer: A nice shape, the only thing I would like to see is to have axe replaced with a hammer, because there currently is no shape melding weapon with blunt damage weapon(spear, sword, short sword, scythe, axe) except raksasha who isn't such a melee shape.
Raksasha:
hm a bit of AC boost wouldn't hurt, I've have had wizards beat me up with staves. The main offensive anti-caster ability of raksasha is dispell. On most server that will dispell the socks off the mage or cleric. However on this server dispell is capped at lvl 10 so, you can't touch any caster above lvl 20 with it(and with greater dispell noone above lvl 25). That sucks. Mestil breath is a joke, and ice storm uses druid levels for damage and SR checks so it isn't great either(also hurts party). I guess druid 20 shifter 20 would get some kick out of it. And since rak is supposed to be main anti-caster/caster shape(heck, raks are highly accomplished mages in dnd), I suggest those 3 spells are replaced by these 4.
- Greater spell breach(will hurt some, but will leave most buffs alone like imp invis and cleric buffs, but it will assist other mages or clerics by removing mantles)
- Protection From Spell (party buff fits in nicely with the whole anticaster support theme. Helps keep party alive.)
- ILMS (a more reliable damage source than mestil and ice storm hurts party members)
- Power Word Kill(nice spell that is not affected much by NWN taking druid levels for caster levels).
Dragon shape: Can't comment, never played it.
Death Slaad Lord:
This shape currently sucks, but it could be changed into way more awesome shape with few simple changes.
- Make him meld items
- Give him the stats of Black Slaad but switch the con and dex around.
Str 42, Dex 38, Con 22 (notice he will still have less AB than azer as he doesn't get +10 AB weapon so it's all cool).
- Give him ability to cast haste. This makes him good at supporting the party and himself.
That would make him an offensive character but still less than dragon(less ab and damage) and still lacking physical and spell resists to be a tank at the same time.
Golems:
I think all golems should meld items.
One thing that concerns me with golems is that their tanking is based on 30/+5 (15/+5 for stone one), so when +5 weapons are introduced to this server they will become a lot more vulnerable.
My other issue with them is lack of AB. They have 33 STR, but have no weapon(other shapes get 5 AB or at least 4 from weapons) so their AB is hardly good. 30 AB at lvl 30, abysmally low. The only buff druid has is emp bull str so that is 4 extra at best.
Also damage is small 2-12 + 11 for demonflesh golem and 2-20+11 for other 2.
Compare that with something like lizard shape with my amazon ghost club equipped:
First it has 31 AB unbuffed which is more than golems.
Damage: 1-2+5 +2d8 blunt +2d8 electrical +5 slashing +2 neg energy +1d6 cold (also gets massive crits and keen)
So that is 13-31 dmg for golems and 13-52 for lizard with keen and massive crits. Also golem damage is only physical and thus easier to resist. See where I am getting at? My ideal solution would be giving them weapons(like heavy flail, haleberd and greatsword) and weapon melding. It would pump up their AB a bit, allow for more diverse damage if so required.
Another thing, shifter has no shape with blunt immunity, so I suggest giving demonflesh golem 50% vs blunt(he doesn't shatter like stone one, flesh is good vs blunt). You performed a closet nerf on him anyway when removing his 20/- elemental resists.
#1 AB and #7 wisdom
Because wisdom is mostly a dead stat, I thought it would be great if upon shifting, shifter received AB bonus of 3 + wisdom modifier / 2. This would nicely narrow the gap between shifter AB and other melee's AB.
More coming later.
#2 AC and item scalability
Well AC on some shapes could need a boost. More on that when discussing shapes.
I found this script:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=sc ... il&id=2315
This script implements proper AC bonus, skill bonus, ability bonus stacking. Ability bonus stacking is currently not needed on NS as there are no multiple item types with same ability bonus.
However I would ask the devs to implement part of his scripts that allows for proper skill bonus stacking.
In current version if I equip my shifter with +5 disc ring, +5 disc ring, +7 disc helm and then shift, my total bonus is +7. So when I shift, my disc skill acutally drops!!! When you add to that the fact that pure shifter has disc as cross class skill, you can see why I'd like to see this changed. Shifter already has 20 less disc(or move silently) as lvl 40 fighter or mage/monk, then he loses 10 extra bonus from items when he shifts. Would really like to see this fixed(the problem is that all skill bonuses are lumped on one item and as such don't stack). I'M FREAKING LVL 30 WITH 25 DISC IN GOLEM SHAPE. And I put every point in it.
#3 Weaponry issues and #4 Glove issue
As mentioned gloves don't meld(which causes shifters to lose 5 STR bonus when shifting) and they have problems with druid/shifter being unable to get any other than druid prof. I think it would be nice if they put in some gloves restricted to shifter that give martial prof. It is a dead slot for shifter anyway, and it would expand available weaponry.
Diversity of Shapes
I think we could achieve greater diversity of used shapes. For starters, most epic II, III, humanoid, ... shapes have around 22 STR which is abysmal.
Therefore I suggest 10 STR 4 DEX 4 AC boost like the one vampire received to epic shapes of wildshape II, epic shapes of wildshape III, epic shapes of humanoid(though better make 10 DEX 4 STR for kobold) and to risen lord and raksasha. I mean cmon, risen lord @ lvl 30 has 32 AC and 31 AB. I can even hit the freaking amazon druids.
Other shapes:
Dire Tiger: Make this travelling shape, add to its hide haste and freedom. At least then it will be used for travelling.
Petrify gaze shapes: need DC fixed
Mind flayer: Could use longer duration on mind shield, now it is like 5 rounds, could use infinite mind blasts. High level shifter receives infinite amount of mind flayers so not having inifinite blasts just annoys as you have to reshift.
Vampire: The boost of +10 STR +4 dex +4 AC made this shape have decent AC, and nice AB compare to other unarmed shapes like medusat and mind flayer. But like medusa and mind flayer and all unarmed shapes it has problems with damage. Frost giant scout takes about 2 damage on average. High quantity of damage resists does that. Making him do some damage at least, even when facing resists, I think it would be nice if vampire had some neg energy damage on fists like 1d6. Or a bit more physical damage. 10+1d6 is something someone is easily immune to.
It also needs its gaze fixed currently it does nothing, even when mobs fail save.
Spectre: If it melded items it would be much better. Has same problems with damage all unarmed shapes have.
Azer: A nice shape, the only thing I would like to see is to have axe replaced with a hammer, because there currently is no shape melding weapon with blunt damage weapon(spear, sword, short sword, scythe, axe) except raksasha who isn't such a melee shape.
Raksasha:
hm a bit of AC boost wouldn't hurt, I've have had wizards beat me up with staves. The main offensive anti-caster ability of raksasha is dispell. On most server that will dispell the socks off the mage or cleric. However on this server dispell is capped at lvl 10 so, you can't touch any caster above lvl 20 with it(and with greater dispell noone above lvl 25). That sucks. Mestil breath is a joke, and ice storm uses druid levels for damage and SR checks so it isn't great either(also hurts party). I guess druid 20 shifter 20 would get some kick out of it. And since rak is supposed to be main anti-caster/caster shape(heck, raks are highly accomplished mages in dnd), I suggest those 3 spells are replaced by these 4.
- Greater spell breach(will hurt some, but will leave most buffs alone like imp invis and cleric buffs, but it will assist other mages or clerics by removing mantles)
- Protection From Spell (party buff fits in nicely with the whole anticaster support theme. Helps keep party alive.)
- ILMS (a more reliable damage source than mestil and ice storm hurts party members)
- Power Word Kill(nice spell that is not affected much by NWN taking druid levels for caster levels).
Dragon shape: Can't comment, never played it.
Death Slaad Lord:
This shape currently sucks, but it could be changed into way more awesome shape with few simple changes.
- Make him meld items
- Give him the stats of Black Slaad but switch the con and dex around.
Str 42, Dex 38, Con 22 (notice he will still have less AB than azer as he doesn't get +10 AB weapon so it's all cool).
- Give him ability to cast haste. This makes him good at supporting the party and himself.
That would make him an offensive character but still less than dragon(less ab and damage) and still lacking physical and spell resists to be a tank at the same time.
Golems:
I think all golems should meld items.
One thing that concerns me with golems is that their tanking is based on 30/+5 (15/+5 for stone one), so when +5 weapons are introduced to this server they will become a lot more vulnerable.
My other issue with them is lack of AB. They have 33 STR, but have no weapon(other shapes get 5 AB or at least 4 from weapons) so their AB is hardly good. 30 AB at lvl 30, abysmally low. The only buff druid has is emp bull str so that is 4 extra at best.
Also damage is small 2-12 + 11 for demonflesh golem and 2-20+11 for other 2.
Compare that with something like lizard shape with my amazon ghost club equipped:
First it has 31 AB unbuffed which is more than golems.
Damage: 1-2+5 +2d8 blunt +2d8 electrical +5 slashing +2 neg energy +1d6 cold (also gets massive crits and keen)
So that is 13-31 dmg for golems and 13-52 for lizard with keen and massive crits. Also golem damage is only physical and thus easier to resist. See where I am getting at? My ideal solution would be giving them weapons(like heavy flail, haleberd and greatsword) and weapon melding. It would pump up their AB a bit, allow for more diverse damage if so required.
Another thing, shifter has no shape with blunt immunity, so I suggest giving demonflesh golem 50% vs blunt(he doesn't shatter like stone one, flesh is good vs blunt). You performed a closet nerf on him anyway when removing his 20/- elemental resists.
Last edited by Spura on Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crimson...my humble attempt at reaching godhood.
Bard/fighter/RDD
Bard/fighter/RDD
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Death Dealer1
- PKer
- Posts: 1263
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:59 pm
- Location: the land of aaahhhhh's, where dorothy lives ;)
About disc: Yes, at lvl 30 I have about 25 disc, and I won't be able to pick Epic skill focus disc until lvl 39.
Also if someone thinks buffs I suggested are too much, you have to consider this: A cleric with 4 warrior levels casts haste and divine power and he has 6 attacks per round. Shifter has 3, unless I drink haste potions which aren't that easy to get and don't last long, and even then I get 4. Also because of engine bug the extra attack from haste is made at lowest AB instead of highest.
As death dealer mentioned shifter has huge problems vs most trivial enemies. Most tanking shapes have poor damage, like golems and gargoyle(heh he has no damage at all), and with 3 attacks that don't hit often, it takes way too much time to kill even CR 20 guards in cities. And because it takes so long to kill them, any damage getting through resists like 1d6 elemental becomes a huge problem.
For instance take Sightbringer DD going at 5 amazon dervishes. Cleric monk with high AC with concealment, dual kamas so he has 7 attacks or something with AB of around 45 and he was lvl 26 at the time I was observing. He just tears through them. Every now and then he gets hit, so he takes 150 damage tops.
Then look at chla's shifter in risen lord shape. He uses 25% slash immune and 10/- vs slash armor and shield vs pierce with same immunities. He is completely immune to their physical damage. But here's the catch. Even if all the damage they can do 1d6 fire, he is gonna die. They have 2 axes, so they have about 6 attacks, risen lord has low ac 32 unlike the cleric, so pretty much all attacks on him hit, and because he has only 3 attacks at low AB of 32 it would take him about 3 minutes at least to kill them. And undead shapes can't even use potions. So guess what happens? They slap the bejesus out of him.
Even though he has all these resists, his low DPM means fights lasts longer and with low AC any damage monsters have that goes through resists becomes lethal. And risen lord has great DPM compared to vampire or golems or death slaad lord(heh they call him lord, lord of sucking perhaps?)
Also monk cleric doesn't give a [censored] if damage is blunt, slashing or piercing. This risen lord shifter on the other hand has no blunt immunities so if there is only 1 slinger present mixed with other amazons, they will kill him mostly because of AC. Low AC makes all shapes rely on immunities and most areas have very mixed damage types in them. If shifter is attacked by 3 slingers, he is going down, he takes too much time to kill them and they unload too much damage cos of low AC.
Actually golems are now good tanks because of 30/+5, but that won't last when they put in more mobs with +5 weapons that just one. Same goes for dragon. His DR was nerfed from 40/+6 to 25/+5, in exchange he got like 10 more average damage on claws. Yay!
Also if someone thinks buffs I suggested are too much, you have to consider this: A cleric with 4 warrior levels casts haste and divine power and he has 6 attacks per round. Shifter has 3, unless I drink haste potions which aren't that easy to get and don't last long, and even then I get 4. Also because of engine bug the extra attack from haste is made at lowest AB instead of highest.
As death dealer mentioned shifter has huge problems vs most trivial enemies. Most tanking shapes have poor damage, like golems and gargoyle(heh he has no damage at all), and with 3 attacks that don't hit often, it takes way too much time to kill even CR 20 guards in cities. And because it takes so long to kill them, any damage getting through resists like 1d6 elemental becomes a huge problem.
For instance take Sightbringer DD going at 5 amazon dervishes. Cleric monk with high AC with concealment, dual kamas so he has 7 attacks or something with AB of around 45 and he was lvl 26 at the time I was observing. He just tears through them. Every now and then he gets hit, so he takes 150 damage tops.
Then look at chla's shifter in risen lord shape. He uses 25% slash immune and 10/- vs slash armor and shield vs pierce with same immunities. He is completely immune to their physical damage. But here's the catch. Even if all the damage they can do 1d6 fire, he is gonna die. They have 2 axes, so they have about 6 attacks, risen lord has low ac 32 unlike the cleric, so pretty much all attacks on him hit, and because he has only 3 attacks at low AB of 32 it would take him about 3 minutes at least to kill them. And undead shapes can't even use potions. So guess what happens? They slap the bejesus out of him.
Even though he has all these resists, his low DPM means fights lasts longer and with low AC any damage monsters have that goes through resists becomes lethal. And risen lord has great DPM compared to vampire or golems or death slaad lord(heh they call him lord, lord of sucking perhaps?)
Also monk cleric doesn't give a [censored] if damage is blunt, slashing or piercing. This risen lord shifter on the other hand has no blunt immunities so if there is only 1 slinger present mixed with other amazons, they will kill him mostly because of AC. Low AC makes all shapes rely on immunities and most areas have very mixed damage types in them. If shifter is attacked by 3 slingers, he is going down, he takes too much time to kill them and they unload too much damage cos of low AC.
Actually golems are now good tanks because of 30/+5, but that won't last when they put in more mobs with +5 weapons that just one. Same goes for dragon. His DR was nerfed from 40/+6 to 25/+5, in exchange he got like 10 more average damage on claws. Yay!
Crimson...my humble attempt at reaching godhood.
Bard/fighter/RDD
Bard/fighter/RDD
Thinking on the Discpline issue how about a Epic Shifter Multipler?
example
Outsider and Undead x1.2
Contructs x1.5
Dragonshape x1.75
This would at least give the Epic Shifts a Melee presents again without haveing to Multiclass to get the Discpline levels up and also represend the bigger they are the harder they are to knockdown, as it stand its actually demoralizeing to fight in melee with a large epic shift when a toon 10 lvl's lower than you can just come up and keep you on the ground untill he beats ya to death. With the modifier they will still be possible to knockdown, but it would take a toon close to there level with a decent AB and a good roll to do such.
Keeping it just to Epic Shifts also prevents those Druids and Shifters that have Multiclassed to bump there Discpline lvl's up from abusing the Multipler to use with non epic shifts and the Spell.
Good Idea? eh guess i'll find out
example
Outsider and Undead x1.2
Contructs x1.5
Dragonshape x1.75
This would at least give the Epic Shifts a Melee presents again without haveing to Multiclass to get the Discpline levels up and also represend the bigger they are the harder they are to knockdown, as it stand its actually demoralizeing to fight in melee with a large epic shift when a toon 10 lvl's lower than you can just come up and keep you on the ground untill he beats ya to death. With the modifier they will still be possible to knockdown, but it would take a toon close to there level with a decent AB and a good roll to do such.
Keeping it just to Epic Shifts also prevents those Druids and Shifters that have Multiclassed to bump there Discpline lvl's up from abusing the Multipler to use with non epic shifts and the Spell.
Good Idea? eh guess i'll find out
Blkmamba, that would be a poor substitute for what I would get with just a single level of ranger or barb(which I could take in TC) or single level of monk I would have x2 disc at the same amount of skill points spent.
Now I will have 21 disc base at lvl 40 by spending 42 skill points.
With single level of any of those classes I would get 43 disc base at lvl 40 by spending 43 skill points.
Also giving other shapes less bonus than dragon would suck, as it would widen the gap between these shapes. Dragon already gets +8 disc bonus check vs KD cos of size. Right now golem shape is the one I use the least(aside for non-epic shapes which are really bad). I mostly use undead.
As far as individual shapes go, I am using risen lord the most. It allows me to farm certain mobs with its piercing and slashing immunity bonus, but is useless in pvp as players can switch weapons at will to blunt weapon something I can't do and something I can't adapt to(can't change shield while shifted).
Also risen lord merges weapon, making him more damaging than constructs. Getting +1d6 cold +2 neg energy +2d8 massive crits keen +2d8 blunt kinda beats golem's fists.
Second most used is vampire, because I can kill ice giants nicely with it, wouldn't want to farm zons with it though.
I also marginally use azer for AB, though his low AC combined with lack of crit and sneak immunity makes ice giant warriors and zons kill him in seconds. Ouch.
Other shape I sometimes use is Iron golem mostly for relic running. I grab a relic and don;t even try to kill defenders, I just run and hope for the best. Had many problems with clerics with haste and KD making me move at snail pace.
I don't use stone and demonflesh, they only meld armor. And the stone golem also sports blunt vulnerability making those blunt weapons deadly.
Generally weapon melding shapes > unarmed shapes. Just happens when you have so many damage bonuses on weapon like Amazon Ghost Club. That's why I thought it would be awesome if golems wielded 2 handed weapons of various damage types.
My main concern however is this:
I am assuming the devs are eventually gonna add more +5 weapons. Problem is that 2 supposedly most powerful shapes golem and dragon don't tank with AC or concealment, but rather with their DR.
Which is 30/+5 for demonflesh and iron, 25/+5 for dragon and 15/+5 for stone. With low AC(no monk) you can't stop hits from landing and when more +5 weapons see play these shapes will become horrible tanks.
Already, with clerics and mages being the most popular classes of pvp oriented players on this server, the greater magic weapon allows to ignore defenses of the dragon and golems(golems still have crit immunity).
Well currently with me being unable to hit even balor summon who mage can easily enchant with +5 weapon, I would like to see this addressed.
Now I will have 21 disc base at lvl 40 by spending 42 skill points.
With single level of any of those classes I would get 43 disc base at lvl 40 by spending 43 skill points.
Also giving other shapes less bonus than dragon would suck, as it would widen the gap between these shapes. Dragon already gets +8 disc bonus check vs KD cos of size. Right now golem shape is the one I use the least(aside for non-epic shapes which are really bad). I mostly use undead.
As far as individual shapes go, I am using risen lord the most. It allows me to farm certain mobs with its piercing and slashing immunity bonus, but is useless in pvp as players can switch weapons at will to blunt weapon something I can't do and something I can't adapt to(can't change shield while shifted).
Also risen lord merges weapon, making him more damaging than constructs. Getting +1d6 cold +2 neg energy +2d8 massive crits keen +2d8 blunt kinda beats golem's fists.
Second most used is vampire, because I can kill ice giants nicely with it, wouldn't want to farm zons with it though.
I also marginally use azer for AB, though his low AC combined with lack of crit and sneak immunity makes ice giant warriors and zons kill him in seconds. Ouch.
Other shape I sometimes use is Iron golem mostly for relic running. I grab a relic and don;t even try to kill defenders, I just run and hope for the best. Had many problems with clerics with haste and KD making me move at snail pace.
I don't use stone and demonflesh, they only meld armor. And the stone golem also sports blunt vulnerability making those blunt weapons deadly.
Generally weapon melding shapes > unarmed shapes. Just happens when you have so many damage bonuses on weapon like Amazon Ghost Club. That's why I thought it would be awesome if golems wielded 2 handed weapons of various damage types.
My main concern however is this:
I am assuming the devs are eventually gonna add more +5 weapons. Problem is that 2 supposedly most powerful shapes golem and dragon don't tank with AC or concealment, but rather with their DR.
Which is 30/+5 for demonflesh and iron, 25/+5 for dragon and 15/+5 for stone. With low AC(no monk) you can't stop hits from landing and when more +5 weapons see play these shapes will become horrible tanks.
Already, with clerics and mages being the most popular classes of pvp oriented players on this server, the greater magic weapon allows to ignore defenses of the dragon and golems(golems still have crit immunity).
Well currently with me being unable to hit even balor summon who mage can easily enchant with +5 weapon, I would like to see this addressed.
Crimson...my humble attempt at reaching godhood.
Bard/fighter/RDD
Bard/fighter/RDD
I put in a fix for this years ago...what happened? (maybe if the GetBAB function was bugged somewhere along the way)Spura wrote:Also if someone thinks buffs I suggested are too much, you have to consider this: A cleric with 4 warrior levels casts haste and divine power and he has 6 attacks per round. Shifter has 3, unless I drink haste potions which aren't that easy to get and don't last long, and even then I get 4. Also because of engine bug the extra attack from haste is made at lowest AB instead of highest.
Tep wrote:I login and there's a dwarf to kill. You can't ask for much more than that.
Alkapwn wrote:NC has the most amazing melee build there is. Its a friggin unstopable juggernaut of pain.
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seriouslynow
- Pk Bait
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Spura I feel your pain.
I did play one server where shifters were almost comparable to other builds. The dragon shape was of course fairly uber in many regards but otherwise you only played the shifter for entertainment, not because it was great.
It seemed that bioware had a decent idea when they made the shapes that improved at certain shifter levels to a better version. Too bad they never developed it more. The shapes really needed more periodic improvements to keep up with your character level. So many of the shapes needed a bit more depth as well (i.e. more abilities or spells).
So many places don't have the developer talent/resources I feel there is here so I'm hoping to finally play a shifter in NWN that isn't just for minor entertainment value.
I did play one server where shifters were almost comparable to other builds. The dragon shape was of course fairly uber in many regards but otherwise you only played the shifter for entertainment, not because it was great.
It seemed that bioware had a decent idea when they made the shapes that improved at certain shifter levels to a better version. Too bad they never developed it more. The shapes really needed more periodic improvements to keep up with your character level. So many of the shapes needed a bit more depth as well (i.e. more abilities or spells).
So many places don't have the developer talent/resources I feel there is here so I'm hoping to finally play a shifter in NWN that isn't just for minor entertainment value.
Spells kinda suck, as they suck with the build with lots of shifter levels and few druid levels. Prime examples being raksasha's ice storm, azer's burning hands, drider's magic missiles. Any small SR like 22 will severly hamper damage of druid 10/shifter 30. Much better are creature abilities like azer's flame burst(though damage is pretty small), spectre's drain touch(DC is a bit low but at least it doesn't get effectivness reduced by SR) and iron golem's poison gas(with fail on one disabled, DC 17 poison doesn't work though).
Dragon breath and slaad's chaos spittle are the only ones I'd use. I would sure like to see more creature abilities on shapes.
That is also why I suggested that raksasha is given spells that would work even with just a few druid levels. Prot from spells, greater spell breach, ILMS and power word kill.
I am still waiting for medusa gaze, basilisk gaze and vampire gaze DCs to be fixed and for vampire gaze to be fixed to have effect on failed save.
I think having abilities like vampire's gaze, dragon breath and others that scale based on shifter level is great as it promotes fully leveling in the PrC.
Optional improvements would be allowing other classes. I think the only problematical one was monk. Allowing other TC classes like barb, bard, ranger would solve a lot of problems with disc, move silently, taunt and other skills that are now hard to have high.
In dnd shifter class is possible for any class with any ability to shapeshift, including class with polymorph self spell(mages and animal domain clerics). Cleric shifter would be quite an improvement as even the simple buffs like bless and aid help a lot.
Anyway there are many solutions. AB buff upon shift dependant on shifter level or wisdom mod, also offering good creature abilities, more spells that are usefull. Spells that would fill this criteria are selfbuffs like haste, nice party buffs like aura of vitality or mass haste or protection from spells, undeath's eternal foe. Out of offensive spells, the best are the ones you don't need high caster level to be effective and possibly ignore SR.
Greater spell breach is great example of havign both properties. A few good ones that don't ignore SR but are great even with only 10 druid levels: various death spells: fod, wail, destruction and powerwords, drown, dominate monster, silence
Etc. Generally, the caster shapes should have more spell choices and better ones than now. Raksasha and death slaad lord come to mind. Here is what the death slaad you get with shapechange gets:
Circle of Death (x4), Darkness (x4), Dispel Magic (x4), Fear (x4), Finger of Death (x4), Fireball (x4),
Hammer of the Gods (x4), Implosion (x1), Invisibility (x4), Magic Circle against Alignment (x4), See
Invisibility (x4)
· Summon Slaad
Some of those spells like dispell are completely useless though. Epic shape like death slaad should really have black slaad props(except the DR, cos black slaad DR is rather crazy).
Dragon breath and slaad's chaos spittle are the only ones I'd use. I would sure like to see more creature abilities on shapes.
That is also why I suggested that raksasha is given spells that would work even with just a few druid levels. Prot from spells, greater spell breach, ILMS and power word kill.
I am still waiting for medusa gaze, basilisk gaze and vampire gaze DCs to be fixed and for vampire gaze to be fixed to have effect on failed save.
I think having abilities like vampire's gaze, dragon breath and others that scale based on shifter level is great as it promotes fully leveling in the PrC.
Optional improvements would be allowing other classes. I think the only problematical one was monk. Allowing other TC classes like barb, bard, ranger would solve a lot of problems with disc, move silently, taunt and other skills that are now hard to have high.
In dnd shifter class is possible for any class with any ability to shapeshift, including class with polymorph self spell(mages and animal domain clerics). Cleric shifter would be quite an improvement as even the simple buffs like bless and aid help a lot.
Anyway there are many solutions. AB buff upon shift dependant on shifter level or wisdom mod, also offering good creature abilities, more spells that are usefull. Spells that would fill this criteria are selfbuffs like haste, nice party buffs like aura of vitality or mass haste or protection from spells, undeath's eternal foe. Out of offensive spells, the best are the ones you don't need high caster level to be effective and possibly ignore SR.
Greater spell breach is great example of havign both properties. A few good ones that don't ignore SR but are great even with only 10 druid levels: various death spells: fod, wail, destruction and powerwords, drown, dominate monster, silence
Etc. Generally, the caster shapes should have more spell choices and better ones than now. Raksasha and death slaad lord come to mind. Here is what the death slaad you get with shapechange gets:
Circle of Death (x4), Darkness (x4), Dispel Magic (x4), Fear (x4), Finger of Death (x4), Fireball (x4),
Hammer of the Gods (x4), Implosion (x1), Invisibility (x4), Magic Circle against Alignment (x4), See
Invisibility (x4)
· Summon Slaad
Some of those spells like dispell are completely useless though. Epic shape like death slaad should really have black slaad props(except the DR, cos black slaad DR is rather crazy).
Crimson...my humble attempt at reaching godhood.
Bard/fighter/RDD
Bard/fighter/RDD