Also Re Relics

toomer · Post by **toomer** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:04 pm

Here's a couple of suggestions

1) PCs ought to benefit from the fact that their allied guild holds relics, they're between a rock and a hard place when their allies hold some/all relics. They shouldn't attack their friends, but their interests are not being served by not trying to take those relics.
Maybe give allies half or even the full relic bonus.
This way the guilds with fewer members that are allied with larger guild still provide an incentive for new members to join them, ex MA.

2) I've noticed that the guilds which have the advantage of numbers on their side (LA, SL, AO) tend to hog the relics for long periods since PCs not in those groups don't want to make suicide runs and lose their items. This will create further incentive for people to play in those guilds hence making the other guilds start to become fringe guilds. Two options I can think of on this one:
a) Instead od DMs stepping in and using their 40th level characters to move a relic back to their own town which frustrates the hell out of the PCs trying to defend it, relics ought to randomly, though extremely rarely, go back to their own town, you know, poof, some shout message, and its gone. This way it doesn't feel like DMs are playing favourites, but the world is always trying to restore itself to its natural state via forces beyond our control.
b) OR don't apply all the penalties associated with relic theft when the relic being grabbed is your own, (ex don't debuff, or no item loss if defeated, etc), in other words make relic recovery easier than relic theft.

trent · Post by **trent** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:41 pm

Just the no item loss would help out alot I think ...... No one wants to attempt a run on a hostle faction with 5 30+ lvl gaurds standing on the relic. The defbuffing should stay though .. makes you work in a team to get the thing. IMO gods should play more of a roll in the relic system and give rewards and punishments

...... Maybe even give -10% xp to all enemy factions that have lost there relic and allied factions don't suffer the xp hit (whats 10% anyway?) but we should lose the item loss for sure .

Post by **Metis** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:04 pm

trent wrote: Maybe even give -10% xp to all enemy factions that have lost there relic and allied factions don't suffer the xp hit (whats 10% anyway?) but we should lose the item loss for sure .

I would disagree with an xp penalty. I understand you saying it would motivate factions to try and get their relic back but, it would cause factions with a lower population to become extinct, especially if you start a new character with an ecl. Imagin having an ecl3+(-10%) ouch

Post by **TGPO** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:54 pm

I do like the idea of a % of the exp bonus to be shared with allied factions. That would make for a reason for more cooperation, I realize that LA has no allies however I see enough benefits for being LA already, and its not as if it would have a negative impact upon them. They already get raided mercilessly for relics or not.

MLoki · Post by **MLoki** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:06 pm

Maybe just start the bonus at +5% or so just for having your home faction... after all it is the easiest one to find via diviners so you can always get at least a little bonus for just doing that...

MLoki

Go'f · Post by **Go'f** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:34 pm

re allies bonus - exploit allert... give your relic to an ally and you both get a bonus

Although its on loan and who is to say it's a bad exploit, I know we (LoS) convinced MA to Loan us there Relic because one Relic alone isn't worth anything

Actualy this encourages Diplomacy with allies and is a very nice idea

Post by **Zing** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:52 pm

I can understand the frustraion of the lesser represented factions currently feeling as though they are losing out, but I relly think that this is where the Guild system should kick in. Guilds from those factions should be recruiting like crazy. They will then increase their numbers and earn their guild house.

One advantage from being from a smaller town is Diviner related. They don't like to go too far from home, so if you live in a small city she'll be much easier to find.

Well have a think about if there is a fairer way to handle the item loss.

I'm not totally against the 5% bonus for having your own relic, but as this item is the key to getting any bonuses at all is this not already a highly prized item???

As far as factions go.....It is generally considered that the Relic is so important to a faction that it goes beyond any treaty or alliance between the factions. Plus when it comes to obtaining Relic 5 or 6 for your faction the XP % jump would be higher than anything offered for your ally having his own Relic so you'll probably want to go and rob him for it.

I very much like the idea of no debuff during recovery attempts. Will look into this tonight.

Celorn · Post by **Celorn** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:31 pm

Zing wrote:I can understand the frustraion of the lesser represented factions currently feeling as though they are losing out, but I relly think that this is where the Guild system should kick in. Guilds from those factions should be recruiting like crazy. They will then increase their numbers and earn their guild house.

Well, from what has transpired so far, what is really shining through (for me) is that wizards and clerics are the dominant force in NS4, shadowdancers are nothing to a wizard who's skillpoint dumped their listen/spot/tumble or a cleric who did the same with disc/tumble/etc... combine magic with cheese, pretty unstoppable in the short term, but then if they fall, they can respawn, rest and rebuff.

Hopefully the upcoming additions to NS4 will include some way of balancing things out a bit, as PvP becomes more and more dominant, otherwise the server will be mostly vetrans, and all mages of some type...that'll be boring.

Well have a think about if there is a fairer way to handle the item loss.

yeah item loss is a HUGE issue now, hardly anybody wants to attack and lose items. Totally removing it would see a lot more battles, but is that what you want or not? Now that SL has the relics, everyone is making SL toons ;]

I'm not totally against the 5% bonus for having your own relic, but as this item is the key to getting any bonuses at all is this not already a highly prized item???

Well, they're should be SOMETHING given for having your own relic in tact... seems strange that it makes no difference if you have it or not. I do agree that a negative % would be a BAD thing.

As far as factions go.....It is generally considered that the Relic is so important to a faction that it goes beyond any treaty or alliance between the factions. Plus when it comes to obtaining Relic 5 or 6 for your faction the XP % jump would be higher than anything offered for your ally having his own Relic so you'll probably want to go and rob him for it.

Yeah, the relic system seems to have really messed up the whole faction alliance system...

I very much like the idea of no debuff during recovery attempts. Will look into this tonight.

Yeah, recovery needs some kind of advantage...

* One idea I thought of a while ago, long before the relic system is; should there be a time delay for respawning?

MLoki · Post by **MLoki** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:42 am

I think the item loss during raids actually makes players wonder if the risk is worth the gain. It is the only thing keeping things from all out war all of the time. If there is absolutely no loss from attempting to steal relics then why not try all the time? Besides it becomes a huge advantage once you are defending the relics and makes relic defence worthwile. Since if you are defending you are obviousy not going out and getting anything from your relic bonus so the items you get from fallen foes may be the only thing you get from having all the relics. We have gone and gotten the relics several times now but I have not been able to reap very much XP rewards from them. Usually by the time I log back on the next day the relics are scattered throughout the realms again.

MLoki

Celorn · Post by **Celorn** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:15 pm

Yeah, as i said... if there wasn't item loss, then we would "see a lot more battles" but it'd probably be more like all out, continual onslaught!

and why can't you go out and lvl while defending? just relog a defender toon when the shout goes out..and you can relog as many defenders as you want too since that's allowed for defense. (unlike -someone today who relogged[a different toon] in a non-faction area, yet cried foul that i had logged[the same toon]- what a hypocrite he was the one actually closer to breaking a commandment, not I)!

Kromix · Post by **Kromix** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:52 pm

now the relogging a toon for city defense, and peoplewhine its unfair? i do have my lvl 31 mage sitting in sleeth, he is not grinding for xp, and its in the verge of delevel due to massive brewing potions... now, this mage wich is also used on city raids is my only pvp worthy character i have atm, the rest are still in the works... but now, why do i sit him there? because i can, because i want him to defend my city from relic stealers, because he's the fromt line of defence when i'm in game...do other people do the same? yes... do i expect it? yes. why? because they can too. and because they want to defend their relic.

why do people whine we do this? is it because we bind in the city? while the raid is only few people big? while the defence is double it's size?

when kst and dcn raided SL for relics, we took all the relics thy had, we confronted an unorganized defence, our attack was 7-8 people strong. we lost a big amount of gear, and gained none... fighters where using robes no rings, non weapon of choice and such because they had lost it dying, we raise our dead, steal the relic and keep runing...

the best advantage in defending a relic is numbers! no matter what people say... if you want to use your hipster solo to steal relics, then it on your head, why not ask for backup? get an epic group to raid all toghether? get organized?

thew item loss is a great thing on a fail raid... it gives incentive to attack in a group and to defend in groups... if you are worried about your tagged gear if you are in a guild, why not just repaint the relpacements? that's what we have done... i once got a robe from a bretheren, it was tagged, i equiped it and talked to our color npc... now its kSt tagged...

like i think u have said, you can grab your char and in 5 minutes ish you can go get a new set... so why the fuzz?

if you steal our relics, remember that then you have achance to get bac k at us when we try to recuperate them... and for you to knoww, relics arent affected by server crashes/reset....

and in my opinion, battle in numbers are fiercer when there is something to loose and gain...

Elagneros · Post by **Elagneros** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:34 pm

Kromix wrote:the best advantage in defending a relic is numbers! no matter what people say... if you want to use your hipster solo to steal relics, then it on your head, why not ask for backup? get an epic group to raid all toghether? get organized?

That's right. If I'm going to retrieve a relic, and I know the faction holding it is actively guarding it, I'm not going after it solo, I'm going to take a small army with me.

Kromix · Post by **Kromix** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:39 pm

THANKYOU!!!!

-Chronepsis- · Post by **-Chronepsis-** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:35 am

Celorn I think you are wrong about SD with taking relics and that u oculd spot em with high spot/listen, cause i have a char that is SD and not many can spot, he was lvl25 last i used em for battle and now 27, so i still ahve 13 lvls before 40 with em and thats a lot more hide to add.and as for losing items, i really dont care, because there were a number of times we raided anfd i had no fear of losing items at the time, it's all part of the game and gives u something to work for. You either want the relics to gain extra exp and in the proccess u may have to lose items for it, so that sounds like fair game to me.

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:04 pm

I have a level 31 sd maxed out in hide and move silently and he still gets spotted in SL while trying to steal the relic. Considering rogues can't compare to a maxed out spot with an additional 20 from true seeing. What I would like to see is a way to STEAL relics, not mug them. Perhaps a way for rogues to unlock the relic cradle (high DC of course, to encourage people to use the Open Lock skill) that doesn't set off the alarm (stealth all the way!) until you pull the relic out. Please

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