faction ideas

[lordvan52681]

Ok, I've only been here for a minute compared to some of the players here; but I've noticed some factions seem lopsided with players and I think I've found why: the requirements are either to strict for the smaller factions, or too lax for the bigger ones.

MA, SL, LA, and NC are fine (LA is large, but it also doesnt have an ally; NC is strict but for the location it is much easier to get those classes allowed to lvl than other factions).

TC requirements are too strict. Just adding monk would open alot more player base and would go well with the storyline :

"Their close connection with nature and balance puts them directly in conflict with the pure arcane power of the Mystral Ascendancy, and The Circle have taken it on themselves to rid the world of the arcane menace."

AO is way too broad. The whole appeal of LA is that it accepts everyone regardless of race/class/allignment, and yet AO does this too and adds the nice RDD prestige class.

RK's only requirement is that they be a dwarf. While this fits with the storyline, should they be allowed to have any class/allignment? I dont know, but i cant imagine too many dwarven rangers or doo-dads running around.....

I realize that not everyone agrees with my views, and that the devs might not even be able to make these changes w/out a wipe, but I wanted to post this for feedback from everyone else =)

*edited for gross negligence in the spelling dept.*

[Death Dealer1]

monk was originally left out of TC because of the shifter PrC...but in light of certain updates that prevent dragon shape and monk from mixing this might be a moot point to argue about.

[P. Fricebottle]

RK's only requirement is that they be a dwarf. While this fits with the storyline, should they be allowed to have any class/allignment? I dont know, but i cant imagine too many dwarven rangers or doo-dadsr unning around.....

I actually think that this requirement is huge, because it cuts off the beloved human race and my favorite halfling race. As for alignment wise, Ragnar's Kin accepts evil duerger, golden dwarves, and brute ale dwarves. As for dwarven rangers, personally I have never seen that build in the first place (maybe a cheese build with ranger for dual but I dunno). I guess a small restriction of no druid or ranger might be in order, but the dwarf-only factor is pretty big in itself. I guess there may be people that favor dwarves, but I see mostly humans, drow, etc. and I think dwarves are more like a Kinsfolk race than an industrialist race but I dunno. That was just my 2 cents.[/list][/list]

[lordvan52681]

*bump*

would like to get more feedback on this. To recap, NC needs monk, AO needs less playable classes.

[MLoki]

Or what about giving LA the Weaponmaster Prestige Class. This would restrict many builds from other factions but more then that it would give LA the edge it is looking for. La already seems to be a center for the warrior classes so why not make them the training ground for Weapon Masters as well? As for the other factions most of the restrictions are to keep their prestige classes from becoming the cheese build that they can be except I am still unsure why MA only allows the one type of cleric. Perhaps allowing them to be any cleric might make MA a bit more popular. After all, I found out that I couldn't take cleric at all because of the three different domains I was required to take for my Fire Ganasi character that started in MA. Just some thoughts.

MLoki

[Go'f]

IF LA (and its a big if) needs a PrC don't make it weapon master, My recomendation would be to give them either Shadow Dancer or, Assassin (swap with SL).
Weapon Master is nice but like Blackguard not that over powered, why take a weak class off the all access and leave the Shadow Dancer which is used far to often by people for its PvP and confusion effect moving Shadow Dancer into restriction allows other classes to look at there own skills instead of defend agains some of the cheesiest builds allowable by the engine limitations (you would divide dancers by many).

A storey reason for this limitation could be that it is a side-effect of the continued research into Rifts and planar escape for the masses.

[trent]

I think monk was left out of t.c cause of the shifter class .... monk/druid/shifters are overpowered in their eyes I guess

[MLoki]

They already have Assassin as a Faction Prestige class even though nobody will play it even if it was outside of a Faction. Weaponmaster however is often used for fighter and rogue types to boost their AB and crit range to deal even more damage in melee.

MLoki

[Aarkon Draco]

Oi, i be a Dwarvin ranger ya dolt.

Vifur Redmane the Giantslayer

[kgb]

Having a quick look. I reckon the following make some interesting changes that could be adopted:

RK - Add restrictions to classes - no Rangers, Druids, or Barbarians. You live underground. Call Lightning doesn't work -that shoud tell you something!

Clerics cannot take Air, Animal, Knowledge, Magic, Plant, Sun, Travel, or Water.

=====
TC - Should be restricted to non-dwarf/gnome races only:
** Dwarfs/Gnomes prefer mountains and the underground after all.

Clerics should be able to choose from Animal, Plant, Earth, Air, Fire, Healing, Sun, Water.

Fighter and Thief should be added to their list of classes to allow for better combat ability and "forest brigands" especially orcs/half-ogres

=====
SL should lose Assassin and pick up Shadowdancer to restrict its abuse and also make an assassin more popular and broadly available for other factions. I see AO, MA, SL, and evil RK having use for it because of their evil leanings. Of course they still can only have the one prestige class but frees up some options for a variety of character builds.

=====
I think the LA should have a race restriction: No non-human races.


=====
AO Should be Non-Good.


I see the split as:

Good: NC/TC
Indifferent: LA/RK
Evil: SL/MA/AO

Good is always outnumbered by the Hordes of Evil.

This is off the top of my head so totally understand if you want to cut it to shreds.

[Milkman99]

Ok while i realize nothing can be perfect to be brutally honest the 2 suckiest and therefore least played factions are TC and MA in that order.

The changes to summons particulary pale master saw an influxs of new MA characters very few of which are still kicking around. As for TC its hoped the shifter changes will help.

This new relic system has seen a big shift in things- if your TC or MA forget it - basically you will never have the relics (not enough players nor high lvls required to get them or keep em) this further leads to ppl going hmmm relics xp bonus who has them?? AO or SL so there has been a marked increase in characters from these factions - add to this the fact that for whatever reason the DD guild was moved from LA to SL and a big majority of players are now SL.

The circle needs opening up in my opinion you MUST at least add good or Neutral rogues to TC - robin hood types, bandits, brigands whatever rogue should be on the list - monk i dont agree with - not in the forest (survival) type TC just dosent seem to fit

What to do with AO and SL not sure but restricting both in some small way might help maybe and i think it needs doing choose 2 domains like MA for clerics some things arent making sense like a LG NC cleric with death domain that casts animate dead and has SF necro. So for AO perhaps knowledge (dragons are ancient) and war or str (lizard man jungle fighter type thing i dont know)

For SL there are to many Drow taking cleric just for the ultra lol give em 2 domains also and 2 only like Evil and trickery ?? maybe 3 add death? while on domains add all the elemt domains to the outdoors TC faction they live in it all the time after all + for MA with pale master add DEATH domain wow wizard/palemaster/deathcleric?? sound MA to you guys.

anyway thats my bit see what u guys think

[Ragefist]

I'd have to reread the specs for AO, but I was under the impression that not all dragons were evil, ergo not all their followers need be.

Assasin could use a bump as a prestige class, but that's neither here nor there really. If you limit SD to any one faction, however, you're basically just going to have a large relocation of the standard one level in SD cheese to that faction, possibly unbalancing the factions a wee bit.

Limiting the cleric domains is an interesting idea, but if you place limits on travel and trickery (the cleric cheese), you're once again going to see people go where they can to get both. Melee is just weakened without haste; it's as simple as that.

Alignment restrictions could be interesting, but I think the devs wanted to allow some latitude still to avoid a whole faction's being 'sploded by scythe wielding smite monsters. It might enhance roleplay, but it's gonna hurt when a worked up build can one shot your 30's char.

@ Milkman -- I think the reason TC and MA are underplayed lies partly in the failure of people to properly utilize the buids that can be worked up from each. Palemaster can be quite nasty when done right (who doesn't like lots of immunities and a cool bony arm?). Same with shifters from the circle -- shifter has been very nicely worked on, and it will take a while for people to experiment. As to why TC and MA never have relics -- well, MA might be b/c the run out there is utterly horrendous. NC, I'd argue, has the same problem though. From SL to Daeron was at least 22 mins last I checked, working the haste as well as I could. That means it's going to be close to an hour for a single relic run, and any competent defender/spoiler can just hop ferries to steal your relic before you even get to Melencia.

I don't agree with adding rogue to TC as I haven't seen what the new shifters can do with some Rogue in them. I'd really hate to see sneak attack dmg massivley multiplied by a vampire form or the like and a new reign of cheese start. Also, the Circle itself would not, in RP terms, support forest brigands or Robin Hoods. There are freakin fairies dancing around Melencia -- it isn't a rough and tumble frontier city .

[lordvan52681]

Finally I get the input I was looking for lol.

Adding SD or WM as a PrC to LA would limit aot of cheese builds, but I wouldnt like to see WM go to 1 faction. NC/TC have enough restrictions, and losing WM would severely hurt them. However very few use SD in these factions.

It wasnt brought up much in the responses I got, but AO... CMON! They have every allowable race, class, and allignment. at the very least they should not have paladins; what kind of sick paladin serves the one creature they fight the most? Take away paladin and give SD to LA and you have just eliminated the most overused cheese builds.

As for MA, NC and RK... they can go many ways depending on who you talk to.

NC is severely restricted, but you can make do if you pay attention (though even paladins should have spies-read the wheel of time).

MA has the PM's which are ungodly powerful, but the previous point of death clerics was good; MA should have them.

RK allows classes that any dwarf, good or evil, would shun. Druids, air clerics, etc. do not jive with the swarven lifestyle.

TC needs monks. Everyone knows that the best class verses mages are monks, and that is who TC hates the most. Someone said it was removed to prevent monk shifter or monk dragons, but its been fixed. If you choose a monk lvl then you cannot add epic shapes. Without these epic shapes (ie dragon, vampire, golem) shifters are useless and druids may as well focus on casting (which makes a monk/druid no worse than a monk/cleric in every other faction). I also liked the suggestion to add sun, air, healing, etc to TC.


*edit* Forgot to mention: KGB, AO is supposed to be neutral. They have good and evil dragons. LA is supposed to be the biggest faction. big rnough to handle any 2 of the other factions. would never get that big if it only allowed humans.

[P. Fricebottle]

Having a quick look. I reckon the following make some interesting changes that could be adopted:

RK - Add restrictions to classes - no Rangers, Druids, or Barbarians. You live underground. Call Lightning doesn't work -that shoud tell you something!

Clerics cannot take Air, Animal, Knowledge, Magic, Plant, Sun, Travel, or Water.

=====
TC - Should be restricted to non-dwarf/gnome races only:
** Dwarfs/Gnomes prefer mountains and the underground after all.

Clerics should be able to choose from Animal, Plant, Earth, Air, Fire, Healing, Sun, Water.

Fighter and Thief should be added to their list of classes to allow for better combat ability and "forest brigands" especially orcs/half-ogres

=====
SL should lose Assassin and pick up Shadowdancer to restrict its abuse and also make an assassin more popular and broadly available for other factions. I see AO, MA, SL, and evil RK having use for it because of their evil leanings. Of course they still can only have the one prestige class but frees up some options for a variety of character builds.

=====
I think the LA should have a race restriction: No non-human races.


=====
AO Should be Non-Good.


I see the split as:

Good: NC/TC
Indifferent: LA/RK
Evil: SL/MA/AO

Good is always outnumbered by the Hordes of Evil.

This is off the top of my head so totally understand if you want to cut it to shreds.

Indeed I intend to. Although AO seems to be evil to most of us, its actually neutral because it is ruled by an evil dragon and a good dragon. We just think of it as so evil, because of KsT memories . As for your solution to Ragnar's Kin, I think that barbarian should be allowed because thats what dwarves are. They're warriors, some more disciplined than others, and since when was a barbaric ale-drinking dwarf restricted? As for your cleric domain restrictions, too strict. Dwarves should get knowledge as they do know the history of their halls, and magic should not be restricted either in my opinion. Also I think they deserve travel and water as well, because they can navigate their tunnels, and there are those underground lakes.

• I think you're cleric restrictions for TC are good except for allowing fire, fire burns their trees. Also as for the forest-brigands, I think TC wouldn't allow these guys because they're brutes are the very things that ruthlessly kill animals and such. Also thieves don't appreciate the forest, but perhaps change the fighter being allowed to paladin (they're good guys I guess) maybe.

AO should not be non-good because its leading dragons are the good ones along with a bad one. LA does not deserve a human-only restriction, because its got no allies, weak guards, and no special prestige class. It needs to stay the way it is as a welcoming place for every race. I agree with the shadow legion shadow dancers.

[Elagneros]

I agree, in fact I was thinking of bringing up this issue myself.

AO is far too unrestricted. Giving them every class, race, and alignment as well as a powerful PrC to boot pretty much screws any advantage LA might have. And I do not buy the numbers arguement — wail, a popular pvp spell, can easily wipe out a large number of players. Many of the LA players are low levels who can't defend against a raid, and/or people who started with characters that couldn't join any other faction besides AO and found the idea of being a dragon slave unappealing. The idea the LA is powerful because it has the most people is a myth. And let's face it, AO has numbers which are likely comparable to LA.

The good and evil factions have class based restrictions. One of the three neutral factions, RK, has a strict race restriction. I definitely think AO needs an alignment restriction. How about saying the dragons of Sleeth arrogantly consider alignment to be a petty mortal concern that is beneath them, and as such allow only neutral characters. I'd say make it true neutral only, although disallowing LG/CG/LE/CE characters would be ok. At the very least, preventing AO from taking the paladin/sorcerer/rdd build would hep balance things out a bit. And yes it is overpowered...it's a combo that combines good melee fighting and spellcasting, has a big save bonus since both sorc and pally are heavily dependant on Charisma, boosts hps, and boosts to Str, Con, Int, and Cha, and gains a number of immunities on a server that already limits immunities from equipment for what I presume is a game balace issue.

I think SD should stay a PrC open to all, and I see no problem with SL keeping assassin as their own. Assassin requires an evil character, and SL is the most evil of all the factions, so it fits. Switching SD and assassin as SL's PrC wouldn't be a big benefit for the other faction, and would be more of a benefit for SL, which it doesn't need. SL is pretty good the way it is, and doesn't need any changes.

I suggested making WM LA only a few months ago, since LA is the most embattled faction, and they need to constantly train for war. SD as LA only isn't a bad idea, it might make the faction more popular, but SD doesn't really seem to fit as LA only. Harper scouts are too crappy and AAs and blackguards are too limited to make an LA only PrC.