Maybe unpopular but...

Donan · Post by **Donan** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 3:13 pm

Not sure how everyone would react to this but I think its good.

For people that multiclass I think it should be required you take more then 1 lvl of a second class. say you want to make your wiz/rogue (how many of those around) by lvl 20 you have to have at least 3 lvls of rogue. I have done the take 1 lvl to maximize spot and even though i am guilty also it is pretty cheesy. You want that dragon form with monk lvls then you need to take the 3 by 20 which wll delay your form but i think thats the way it should be, even the rdd or AA.

I made a few of the ones listed above with just 1 lvl of something and it occured to me last night when i played my rogue. I took epic hiding, etc all the stuff to increase hide and can still be seen by most who invest 1 lvl in something that gives spot and uses or casts true seeing. Getting a drow rogue to 26 isnt easy and its a bummer that almost anyone can sacrifice a single lvl and basically nullify my only weapon of sneaking (and the build is maximized for hiding)

So just a thought in general i was hoping to get others response and some ideas how to take this basic idea and improve it.

like i said i am guilty of doing and do not even know if is possible to force people to make a char this way.

well was just a thought....

deathdearler1 · Post by **deathdearler1** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:29 pm

most of my wizzy's have 1 level of rogue....but my build requires a few more to be the way i like them. i just don't get enough lvls on here to get all of them.

BlkMamba · Post by **BlkMamba** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:15 pm

I have a Mage/Rouge, but its got 3 lvl's of Rouge and i intend to keep going with Rouge, i didnt take up my 2nd class till i was done with my Mage lvling, its my way of doing it..

Kromix · Post by **Kromix** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:50 am

can true seeing's bonuses be lowered too?

Marah Telexus · Post by **Marah Telexus** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:50 am

I agree completely. The worst is when a cleric or druid do this. With their already high wisdom and true seeing, once they are able to maximize spot with one rogue level, hide is impossible from them. Even the items in the game favor spot over hide (helms that give +7spot as opposed to CRAFTED boots with +6hide). The way it should be set up is if a build is maximized for spot it should have the same spot as a dex build maximized for hide. So the spotter will see the hider 50% of the time (makes sense). An easy fix to this is to have more +hide items in the game. Until then, you will be spotted.

Post by **Flailer** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:33 am

Good ideas on spot/hide balance.

So, on the plus side for hide we currently have:
12 (dex bonus) + 10 (epic skill focus) + 43 (skill points) + 7 (an armor or two with hide bonus) + 6 (boot bonus) = 66
With varying levels of committent, racial/subrace bonuses, you can get another +6 or so. Plus, with a druid/ranger, you can get an additional +14 bonuses through spells.

So, for hide that gives us a max of 66-72 with rangers/druids having a potential max of 80-86.

For spot, potential bonuses are:
43 (skill points) + 12 (wisdom) +10 (epic skill focus) + 20 (true seeing) + 7 (helms) = 92
Again, various builds/commitment/racial bonuses could give you another +6 or so and arcane casters and UMD users can have an additional + 10 from clairvoyance/claraudience for 108.

So for spot that gives us a max range of 80 - 96 (assuming we're not Wis focused) and 92 - 108 (assuming we are wis focused). Elves also get a bonus since they're spotting as if they're constantly searching - forget what bonus that adds to it though.

So roughly the average max hide is somewhere around 76 and the average max spot is somewhere around 94. So, statistically there should be an additional bonus of +18 for hide possible to even things out. That seems a bit high though - maybe 8-12 would be better.

Have to think about where a good place to put those bonuses would be.

Marah Telexus · Post by **Marah Telexus** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:40 am

A suggestion from me: put about +10hide on items (good items for dexers, like a cloak, not bracers

), then put about +8 hide as a bonus for SL jobs. The numbers could be moved around, but the main point being that an SL character should have access to the highest hide potential, right?
Also, +7 in hide armor? I've seen the +3hide/movesilently armor that drops in menzo, but just disregarded it since it was medium armor and kills all dex bonus to ac. There are other items with +hide that are good for dexers? If so, I'm on the lookout...unless someone cares to share

trent · Post by **trent** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:54 am

or maybe just let invis and darkness add 20 to hide like true seeing adds to spot.

Holghask · Post by **Holghask** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:26 am

What about the Move Silently/Listen opposed checks...folks are complaining about the balance between hide and spot...I agree I think Hide and Spot need to be equalized...but so does Listen and Move Silently...

I have never seen an item with bonuses to Listen, yet there are plenty with Move Silently bonuses...

Perhaps add some stuff to pump Listen up while you're at it?

Holghask · Post by **Holghask** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:58 am

Oh and Flailer, don't forget that clerics with Trickery domain can get bonuses to hide too...

A high DEX based cleric with 1 lev of rogue and 1 lev of druid/ranger can attain around 95 Hide max (without the camoflage scrolls and >100 Hide with them) with 38 cleric levs...

Elagneros · Post by **Elagneros** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:04 pm

Holghask wrote: I have never seen an item with bonuses to Listen, yet there are plenty with Move Silently bonuses...

There are several helms with listen bonuses:

Slitted helms: can be bought at the weapon/armor shops. The level 13 helm can be bought at Avendell and gives a +5 to Listen. I've never seen it myself, but there should be an Imbued Mithril Slitted Helm which drops on high enough level monsters that gives a +7 to listen.

Helm of Glork (Level 5): +2 to Listen

Helm of Tul'gik (level 5): +2 to Listen

Duergar Guardian Helmet 9Level 9): +3 to Listen

Dwarven Guardian Helm (Level 13): +5 to Listen

Irontop's Crown (Level 13): +5 to Listen

Forest Imbued Helm (Level 16): +7 Listen

Holghask · Post by **Holghask** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:09 pm

Thanks for the list!!!

ok, axe my suggestion on Listen...just pump up Hide...

Marah Telexus · Post by **Marah Telexus** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:48 pm

so how about a list of all the +hide items

i know only of crafted items and the medium armor in menzo...

AggieDan · Post by **AggieDan** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:23 pm

What about Mystral Ascendency as well? They are not only mages but also thieves.

Marah Telexus wrote:A suggestion from me: put about +10hide on items (good items for dexers, like a cloak, not bracers ), then put about +8 hide as a bonus for SL jobs.

Post by **Binkyuk** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:21 pm

there's padded armour in garagoth that gives +7 hide.
unfortunately it's padded so you've got a maximum dex of 26 while using it. still if you're really going for hide over AB and AC it's worth it, unless you can get your dex up near 40.