As weapons get load of bonuses + extra damage + extra crit etc., which don't boost unarmed damage in shifted creatures, how about adding wis stat bonus to unarmed shapes damage? (ok maybe a little over the top, I haven't see high end weapons though, so maybe not)
Thought 2, would it be possible to give the monk wis AC bonus to the shifter shapes. I know you can add feats to shapes (disarm to lizardman whippy guy), but would that require a hak pak or is there another way to do it. Shrug.
I am about to get my 3rd shifter level, and am dreading the armour class of my shapes, esp. losing the nice +6 from tower shield and all bonuses being turned into deflection so only the highest counts.[/b]
2 shifter thoughts
I really don't see a simple fix, but thankfully it's all moddable without a hak.
We'll look at what abilities are available when and work from there.
We'll look at what abilities are available when and work from there.
Tep wrote:I login and there's a dwarf to kill. You can't ask for much more than that.
Alkapwn wrote:NC has the most amazing melee build there is. Its a friggin unstopable juggernaut of pain.
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Brennan068
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scruffyspellslinger
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Just realised that I forgot thought 3
This is probably totally impossible but...
It would be nice if when a shifter shifted, the name displayed when cursored over was the name of the creature not the character name. This makes shifting useful for running away from things, esp. when in a place where there are lots of similiar animals (e.g. bears), and how does anyone realise that that particular bear is anything other than a bear without truesight (possibly).
It would be nice if when a shifter shifted, the name displayed when cursored over was the name of the creature not the character name. This makes shifting useful for running away from things, esp. when in a place where there are lots of similiar animals (e.g. bears), and how does anyone realise that that particular bear is anything other than a bear without truesight (possibly).
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DrakhanValane
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Re: Just realised that I forgot thought 3
Correct. It's so hardcoded it's not even funny.scruffyspellslinger wrote:This is probably totally impossible but...
It would be nice if when a shifter shifted, the name displayed when cursored over was the name of the creature not the character name. This makes shifting useful for running away from things, esp. when in a place where there are lots of similiar animals (e.g. bears), and how does anyone realise that that particular bear is anything other than a bear without truesight (possibly).
If you tilt your head far enough and squint hard enough, anything becomes as simple or complex as you'd like--regardless of whether it is or not. -- A lesson learned from Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science
Re: Just realised that I forgot thought 3
YES IT IS!DrakhanValane wrote:Correct. It's so hardcoded it's not even funny.scruffyspellslinger wrote:This is probably totally impossible but...
It would be nice if when a shifter shifted, the name displayed when cursored over was the name of the creature not the character name. This makes shifting useful for running away from things, esp. when in a place where there are lots of similiar animals (e.g. bears), and how does anyone realise that that particular bear is anything other than a bear without truesight (possibly).
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA
Type post, tab tab enter, wait 4page 2 load, shift+tab tab enter, REPEAT!!!
The quickest, easiest, and least work option would simply be to allow monk as a class in TC...without the benefit of monk AC a shifter is basically useless in NS4.
Ever noticed how you have never seen a high level shifter running around? Its because they simply cannot survive...the closest thing you can get right now would be a Druid/Monk from some other faction with Dragonshape, which there are a few running around right now. Thats all fine and good if your only interested in running around as a dragon, but its hardly a shifter...you lose out on the abilibty to change into a good 20 or so other cool shapes, not to mention the fact that the earliest you can get dragonshape is around level 27, and by that time the only things left to do are run around killing rats for exp or PvP combat.
With the classes currently available in TC shifter is a useless novelty class...sure you could make one that would survive...if they never shifted in combat...they would have to spend 95% of their time in their human shape and live off their druid skills...using their shifted forms simply for the 'Ooh that looks cool' effect.
Without the benefits of monk AC its impossible to get your AC above the mid 30s, which any other melee based class can easilly do by level 16.
I have been wanting to play a shifter practically since I started playing on NS, but until some kind of change is put in place to make them a viable choice they may as well not even exist on the server.
Ever noticed how you have never seen a high level shifter running around? Its because they simply cannot survive...the closest thing you can get right now would be a Druid/Monk from some other faction with Dragonshape, which there are a few running around right now. Thats all fine and good if your only interested in running around as a dragon, but its hardly a shifter...you lose out on the abilibty to change into a good 20 or so other cool shapes, not to mention the fact that the earliest you can get dragonshape is around level 27, and by that time the only things left to do are run around killing rats for exp or PvP combat.
With the classes currently available in TC shifter is a useless novelty class...sure you could make one that would survive...if they never shifted in combat...they would have to spend 95% of their time in their human shape and live off their druid skills...using their shifted forms simply for the 'Ooh that looks cool' effect.
Without the benefits of monk AC its impossible to get your AC above the mid 30s, which any other melee based class can easilly do by level 16.
I have been wanting to play a shifter practically since I started playing on NS, but until some kind of change is put in place to make them a viable choice they may as well not even exist on the server.
u sure it's not because they've always been broken?Arashi wrote:The quickest, easiest, and least work option would simply be to allow monk as a class in TC...without the benefit of monk AC a shifter is basically useless in NS4.
Ever noticed how you have never seen a high level shifter running around? Its because they simply cannot survive...
Type post, tab tab enter, wait 4page 2 load, shift+tab tab enter, REPEAT!!!
Even with the item merging/save problems people still did the dragonshape druid/monk thing...take a look at Gizmaluke or Guardian of Sleeth some time.
The only reason that works is because dragonshape gets just rediculous enough stats to start off with to make it viable without items...look at the stats of dragonshape
Str: 48, Dex: 36, Con: 32
THP +100/AC 43
Merge Armor ONLY
True Seeing, Spell Resistance 20, Damage Reduction 40/+6
Thats for all the colors, then each color gets 100% immunity to one elemental damage, Mind-Affecting Spells, Paralysis, Sneak Attack...add in monk AC and you get another +15 AC right there, plus tumble, etc, etc...you can hit some amazing AC on a dragonshape...
Now lets look at some of the ones you have to take shifter for...
Iron Golem
Str: 33, Dex: -, Con: -
THP +90/ AC +13
Merge Armor, Merge Items
Spell Resistance 26, Damage Reduction 20/+4
Immunity Increased: Electricity 90%
Immunity Decreased: Fire 50%
Immunities: Critical Hits, Death Magic, Disease, Level/Ability Drain, Mind-Affecting Spells, Paralysis, Poison, Sneak Attack
Bonus Feats: Knockdown, Power Attack
Poison Gas
The list of immunities and such looks great...then you realize that this form starts with 30 AC less than dragonshape, has almost the same requirements (27 Wis instead of 30 for dragonshape) but this one requires you to be a shifter...so lets take a look at the absolute best thing shaope could ever get on NS without monk
38 Str max...thats with +5 from bulls str (gloves dont merge)
21 Dex (thats with +6 dex boots and +5 from cats grace)
20 Con (+5 from belt +5 from endurance)
35 AC (+3 AC from armor mods, +4 AC from tumble, +5 AC from dex, +13 AC from the shape)
Thats sadly low AC for a shape that is supposed to be made for a frontline tank type...adding monk AC to that would hardly make it some uber-character either...especially compared to the current druid/monk dragonshape builds available to other factions. Most melee types have higher AC than that at level 16...and that absolute earliest you can even get construct shape is around level 27...try playing with one of the non-epic shapes and you wouldnt be able to stand up to an npc half your level while shifted.
The only reason that works is because dragonshape gets just rediculous enough stats to start off with to make it viable without items...look at the stats of dragonshape
Str: 48, Dex: 36, Con: 32
THP +100/AC 43
Merge Armor ONLY
True Seeing, Spell Resistance 20, Damage Reduction 40/+6
Thats for all the colors, then each color gets 100% immunity to one elemental damage, Mind-Affecting Spells, Paralysis, Sneak Attack...add in monk AC and you get another +15 AC right there, plus tumble, etc, etc...you can hit some amazing AC on a dragonshape...
Now lets look at some of the ones you have to take shifter for...
Iron Golem
Str: 33, Dex: -, Con: -
THP +90/ AC +13
Merge Armor, Merge Items
Spell Resistance 26, Damage Reduction 20/+4
Immunity Increased: Electricity 90%
Immunity Decreased: Fire 50%
Immunities: Critical Hits, Death Magic, Disease, Level/Ability Drain, Mind-Affecting Spells, Paralysis, Poison, Sneak Attack
Bonus Feats: Knockdown, Power Attack
Poison Gas
The list of immunities and such looks great...then you realize that this form starts with 30 AC less than dragonshape, has almost the same requirements (27 Wis instead of 30 for dragonshape) but this one requires you to be a shifter...so lets take a look at the absolute best thing shaope could ever get on NS without monk
38 Str max...thats with +5 from bulls str (gloves dont merge)
21 Dex (thats with +6 dex boots and +5 from cats grace)
20 Con (+5 from belt +5 from endurance)
35 AC (+3 AC from armor mods, +4 AC from tumble, +5 AC from dex, +13 AC from the shape)
Thats sadly low AC for a shape that is supposed to be made for a frontline tank type...adding monk AC to that would hardly make it some uber-character either...especially compared to the current druid/monk dragonshape builds available to other factions. Most melee types have higher AC than that at level 16...and that absolute earliest you can even get construct shape is around level 27...try playing with one of the non-epic shapes and you wouldnt be able to stand up to an npc half your level while shifted.
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TheBestDeception
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Bah...GoS is a pushover...now GotS...thats something to fear...Arashi wrote:Even with the item merging/save problems people still did the dragonshape druid/monk thing...take a look at Gizmaluke or Guardian of Sleeth some time.
Anyways, monk in TC would be a great boost for their shifters. Maybe its just me, but it seems shifters are more a novelty than Druids...sure, its "neat" to change shapes, but the best shape you can turn into (DRAGON) is just as easily attained through Druid...and more effective as a Druid, due to better casting abilities.
Seems kind of pointless to go shifter if you ask me.
As things are right now it is pointless to go shifter...if you could get a decent AC as a shifter they can make quite an interesting character, but without the monk class their AC is just so low they will get torn apart on this server.
I would love to see someone run around and actually try to earn exp with a mid-level shifter...try using something like minotaur shape some time...your AC would top out at like 20...and that AC for a shape thats supposed to be a fighter...you can have a level 1 character with a higher AC...and easilly at that...
Like I said, simply adding monk to the available class options for TC would solve most of the downfalls of the shifter class...there are always other options that would be far more complex, and require alot more work...like maybe introduce an entire new set of shifter only items with mods that would make them competetive...I know it can be done, there are other class specific items all over...maybe some kind of direct change to the shifter class so they gain AC like monks, or so they get higher AC based on shifter levels or something...out of all the options, I think allowing monks in TC is the most reasonable...how long could it take to add monk to the class list for TC? Certainly not as long as adding a whole new set of items, or making drastic changes to the class...
Arashi
I would love to see someone run around and actually try to earn exp with a mid-level shifter...try using something like minotaur shape some time...your AC would top out at like 20...and that AC for a shape thats supposed to be a fighter...you can have a level 1 character with a higher AC...and easilly at that...
Like I said, simply adding monk to the available class options for TC would solve most of the downfalls of the shifter class...there are always other options that would be far more complex, and require alot more work...like maybe introduce an entire new set of shifter only items with mods that would make them competetive...I know it can be done, there are other class specific items all over...maybe some kind of direct change to the shifter class so they gain AC like monks, or so they get higher AC based on shifter levels or something...out of all the options, I think allowing monks in TC is the most reasonable...how long could it take to add monk to the class list for TC? Certainly not as long as adding a whole new set of items, or making drastic changes to the class...
Arashi
which is exactly why the devs didnt have monks in tc, they did it on purpose.Arashi wrote:Even with the item merging/save problems people still did the dragonshape druid/monk thing...take a look at Gizmaluke or Guardian of Sleeth some time.
The only reason that works is because dragonshape gets just rediculous enough stats to start off with to make it viable without items...look at the stats of dragonshape
Str: 48, Dex: 36, Con: 32
THP +100/AC 43
Merge Armor ONLY
True Seeing, Spell Resistance 20, Damage Reduction 40/+6
Thats for all the colors, then each color gets 100% immunity to one elemental damage, Mind-Affecting Spells, Paralysis, Sneak Attack...add in monk AC and you get another +15 AC right there, plus tumble, etc, etc...you can hit some amazing AC on a dragonshape...
Now lets look at some of the ones you have to take shifter for...
Iron Golem
Str: 33, Dex: -, Con: -
THP +90/ AC +13
Merge Armor, Merge Items
Spell Resistance 26, Damage Reduction 20/+4
Immunity Increased: Electricity 90%
Immunity Decreased: Fire 50%
Immunities: Critical Hits, Death Magic, Disease, Level/Ability Drain, Mind-Affecting Spells, Paralysis, Poison, Sneak Attack
Bonus Feats: Knockdown, Power Attack
Poison Gas
The list of immunities and such looks great...then you realize that this form starts with 30 AC less than dragonshape, has almost the same requirements (27 Wis instead of 30 for dragonshape) but this one requires you to be a shifter...so lets take a look at the absolute best thing shaope could ever get on NS without monk
38 Str max...thats with +5 from bulls str (gloves dont merge)
21 Dex (thats with +6 dex boots and +5 from cats grace)
20 Con (+5 from belt +5 from endurance)
35 AC (+3 AC from armor mods, +4 AC from tumble, +5 AC from dex, +13 AC from the shape)
Thats sadly low AC for a shape that is supposed to be made for a frontline tank type...adding monk AC to that would hardly make it some uber-character either...especially compared to the current druid/monk dragonshape builds available to other factions. Most melee types have higher AC than that at level 16...and that absolute earliest you can even get construct shape is around level 27...try playing with one of the non-epic shapes and you wouldnt be able to stand up to an npc half your level while shifted.
a person who knows what he is doing can be incredibly lame...
Type post, tab tab enter, wait 4page 2 load, shift+tab tab enter, REPEAT!!!
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scruffyspellslinger
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Useful Shape
So far the only shape from greater wildshape 2 I have found a real use for is the gargoyle. Don't laugh. I cast stoneskin and stood in front of 2 sorcerors while raiding the dragon cave. The Evil king Giant couldn't damage me fast enough to stop me healing with potions while they spelled him to death. I did try hitting him, but did 0 damage, so I just stood there stony faced.
Tried using harpy charm on ogres, but that didn't work. Tried using minotaur, but everything hit me. (My druid has an AC varying between 30-35 depending on potions, the minotaur hits 20).
The shape I use most is bear. Gives me 27 strength to carry all my junk back to town with. Don't do anything else with it though.
Still, I am going to get to at least lvl 7 shifter, as then armour, items and weapons merge into humanoid forms! Yay! That might make the difference.[/b]
Tried using harpy charm on ogres, but that didn't work. Tried using minotaur, but everything hit me. (My druid has an AC varying between 30-35 depending on potions, the minotaur hits 20).
The shape I use most is bear. Gives me 27 strength to carry all my junk back to town with. Don't do anything else with it though.
Still, I am going to get to at least lvl 7 shifter, as then armour, items and weapons merge into humanoid forms! Yay! That might make the difference.[/b]
That hardly makes sense...why then can you still take a paladin level as a sorc? or 1 level of sorc or bard just to get red dragon disciple? or 1 level of shadowdancer for hide in plain sight?Throst54 wrote:which is exactly why the devs didnt have monks in tc, they did it on purpose.
a person who knows what he is doing can be incredibly lame...
At least with the shifter they have good reason to take more than just a single level in monk...all the best shifter builds include 6 or more monk levels, which is a significant investment or time/levels unlike most of the cheese builds out there...even with monk levels shifters are still hardly an unbeatable uber-build character...
Oh and you can still make a druid/monk that uses dragonshape...and if you do that still leaves you a whole 3rd class open *cough* shadowdancer *cough*
Making one class that isnt even that nasty basically useless hardly stops people from making horribly powerfull characters, it just takes one class away as a viable option to people that play here.
The only way you will ever stop people from coming up with cheesy munchkinized character builds would be if you restricted the game to a single class, with set stats and progression for every player...oh and they all have to run around with exactly the same equipment too or someone will find that one perfect combo of items that makes their character better than someone elses...
I can understand putting some restrictions in place...I rather like the faction setup, but I agree with a post I saw earlier...they should allow all the core classes in every faction, just limit the PrCs...name one core class and one faction and I can come up with a perfectly reasonable RP reason to allow them into any faction in NS...some of the PrCs I cant really say the same for as many of them are just too specialized, but the core classes are just that...core...they are the heart of the game and should be allowed anywhere.
Arashi