After playing a offensive casting druid for a while I have noticed a few spells that are rather lame (or rather odd) for their level.
Druids are the only casting class with no method of getting concealment. Perhaps Camouflage / Mass Camouflage could have 10% concealment added to their effects. This would make the Camouflage spells useful to more than just the niche stealth builds. It would also make Mass Camouflage a popular party spell and it would also give Rangers a helpful defensive ability.
While Stonehold is one of the best PvM spells in the druidic arsenal it suffers from the same problem as the assassin death attack. For some bizarre reason, being encased in stone has been classified as a mind effect. Protection from Alignment, Mind Blank and mind immunity should not make you immune to being encased in a solid block of stone. (Nor should it make you immune to having vital nerves severed. re Assassin) Is it possible to have the save type changed from will vs mind to will vs something-that-makes-a-lot-more-sense? Same thing for death attack?
Bombardment, an 8th level spell that does a sum total of 10d8 with a reflex save for half or negate with evasion. To top it off, the damage is physical and eveything in NS4 has physical resist out the woozah. Often I will cast this spell and have its damage fail to reach double figures.
There are two options I can think of is to increase the potency of this spell. The first is obvious, increase the damage potential to be more in line with an 8th level spell. The second option is to change the effect of the save. Rather than reducing damage, a reflex save could instead allow you to avoid being stunned for a short duration, say 1d4 rounds. It is after all big rocks falling out of the sky and onto your head.
Earthquake is a 9th level spell with the same damage potential as Fireball, a 3rd level spell except that Earthquake is physical, hence easy to get resistance to. Again either boost the damage or change the save. Instead of reducing damage a successful save could allow you to avoid being knocked prone for 1d4 rounds.
I am not sure how any character, no matter how good their evasion is, can avoid an earthquake. Perhaps to reflect this, Earthquake could have a dex check instead of a reflex save, the way some bigby's spells do with strength.
This would make Earthquake do 10d6 damage to everything and those that fail a dex check would be knocked prone for 1d4 rounds.
Sunburst, the blindness is no longer permanent. Any particular reason for this? Seeing as Energy Drain (9th) requires Greater Restoration (7th) and blindness from Sunburst (8th) only requires Restoration (5th) or Cure Blindness (3rd-4th) I do not understand why this 8th level spell had its best feature against non undead changed from permanent to just a few rounds.
Mass Heal, for both clerics and druids is more like Mass Cure Serious. Healing on average 40-50 hp. Why not make it exactly what it is descibed as, an area effect version of the heal spell? Healing Circle if I recall is also rather ineffective considering its level.
Anyone else come across any spells, druid or otherwise that they simply would never consider using?
Druid Spell Suggestions
The druid-specific immobilizer spells (Vine Mine, Stonehold, even S of V to some extent) suffer from the same defect in comparison to the cleric & arcane immobilizers - the immobilization check doesn't fire on the first round the spell is in effect.
This means they are all but useless in PvP (unless you intend to cast them on spawn-in points) as all you have to do is run out of the AoE before the second round to avoid the spell effect.
This means they are all but useless in PvP (unless you intend to cast them on spawn-in points) as all you have to do is run out of the AoE before the second round to avoid the spell effect.
Lots of great ideas/feedback here. I'm saving this post for my notes!
This is actually something that's been discussed already, it gives a little more umph to the camouflage/mass camouflage/vine mine: camouflage "suite" and it expands the versatility of the spells.
Disabling effects are being rethought across the board. It is my opinion that the player should always be able to do <i>something</i>, and not just "wait to die". Unfortunately nothing can be done, as far as I know, to Death Attack because it's handled in-engine and not scripts.
These are nice ideas. I read somewhere that Bioware did want to expand certain spells to be more effective in a CRPG setting, but the WotC license prevented them from doing so.
...
This can very easily be fixed by copying the effect from round to round on casting, too.
Denort wrote:After playing a offensive casting druid for a while I have noticed a few spells that are rather lame (or rather odd) for their level.
Druids are the only casting class with no method of getting concealment. Perhaps Camouflage / Mass Camouflage could have 10% concealment added to their effects. This would make the Camouflage spells useful to more than just the niche stealth builds. It would also make Mass Camouflage a popular party spell and it would also give Rangers a helpful defensive ability.
This is actually something that's been discussed already, it gives a little more umph to the camouflage/mass camouflage/vine mine: camouflage "suite" and it expands the versatility of the spells.
Denort wrote:While Stonehold is one of the best PvM spells in the druidic arsenal it suffers from the same problem as the assassin death attack. For some bizarre reason, being encased in stone has been classified as a mind effect. Protection from Alignment, Mind Blank and mind immunity should not make you immune to being encased in a solid block of stone. (Nor should it make you immune to having vital nerves severed. re Assassin) Is it possible to have the save type changed from will vs mind to will vs something-that-makes-a-lot-more-sense? Same thing for death attack?
Disabling effects are being rethought across the board. It is my opinion that the player should always be able to do <i>something</i>, and not just "wait to die". Unfortunately nothing can be done, as far as I know, to Death Attack because it's handled in-engine and not scripts.
Denort wrote:Bombardment, an 8th level spell that does a sum total of 10d8 with a reflex save for half or negate with evasion. To top it off, the damage is physical and eveything in NS4 has physical resist out the woozah. Often I will cast this spell and have its damage fail to reach double figures.
There are two options I can think of is to increase the potency of this spell. The first is obvious, increase the damage potential to be more in line with an 8th level spell. The second option is to change the effect of the save. Rather than reducing damage, a reflex save could instead allow you to avoid being stunned for a short duration, say 1d4 rounds. It is after all big rocks falling out of the sky and onto your head.
Earthquake is a 9th level spell with the same damage potential as Fireball, a 3rd level spell except that Earthquake is physical, hence easy to get resistance to. Again either boost the damage or change the save. Instead of reducing damage a successful save could allow you to avoid being knocked prone for 1d4 rounds.
I am not sure how any character, no matter how good their evasion is, can avoid an earthquake. Perhaps to reflect this, Earthquake could have a dex check instead of a reflex save, the way some bigby's spells do with strength.
This would make Earthquake do 10d6 damage to everything and those that fail a dex check would be knocked prone for 1d4 rounds.
These are nice ideas. I read somewhere that Bioware did want to expand certain spells to be more effective in a CRPG setting, but the WotC license prevented them from doing so.
...
Bob wrote:The druid-specific immobilizer spells (Vine Mine, Stonehold, even S of V to some extent) suffer from the same defect in comparison to the cleric & arcane immobilizers - the immobilization check doesn't fire on the first round the spell is in effect.
This means they are all but useless in PvP (unless you intend to cast them on spawn-in points) as all you have to do is run out of the AoE before the second round to avoid the spell effect.
This can very easily be fixed by copying the effect from round to round on casting, too.
"Cats aren't domesticated, they're just not big enough to kill you." -Phil Athans, former WotC employee
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Mad_Bovine
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You suggestions for spell changes don't truly fit in with how a druid is supposed to be used... a druid shouldn't be relying on spells for anythign but enhancements to their shapeshifting abilities... which, if anything, are close to worthless witht he way NS is built right now. Shapeshifting, which is a druids prime ability is completely nerfed. Any shape you take (Non-epic/Shifter feats not coutned) will be smacked around by virtually anything you would be fighting given the level required to shift into that form due to AC and damage resistance. Take for instance, the Dire Bear shape (Brown bear shape changes to it around level 13 I think it was...) You look like this fearsome bear that should be able to tear anything apart... but even CR 7 critters can deal out more damage than you have HP in just a few short rounds due to a low AC and not having the damage resistance items effecting you that you would have at that level.
WHat I really want to see is for the Animal Empathy skill be un-nerfed... grabbing spellcasters' summons is not that devastating to the original caster and should be left alone. Especially if the Devs want spell casters to stop relying on summons, why take away the ability of a druid or ranger from stealing them away?
WHat I really want to see is for the Animal Empathy skill be un-nerfed... grabbing spellcasters' summons is not that devastating to the original caster and should be left alone. Especially if the Devs want spell casters to stop relying on summons, why take away the ability of a druid or ranger from stealing them away?
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Bringing laziness to a whole new level
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TheBestDeception
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Bob wrote:The druid-specific immobilizer spells (Vine Mine, Stonehold, even S of V to some extent) suffer from the same defect in comparison to the cleric & arcane immobilizers - the immobilization check doesn't fire on the first round the spell is in effect.
Stonehold is instantly checked...and quite useful in PVP. That is, unless someone WILLS not to be physically encased in stone. Where is the logic there? Maybe I shouldn't be arguing, as it makes trapping fighters easier...but as far as making sense...it falls a little short.
(EDIT) Bombardment and Earthquake are a joke. Goblin warriors (CR 4 critters) who beat the DC have survived them from my 26 druid...its sad. They definately need some sort of boost to make them usable as lvl 8 and 9 spells. (/EDIT)
But, it's such a draining job that, until you've DMed on an NWN server yourself, you the playerbase, have got to cut the DMs some slack. - Flailer
We tested out Stonehold & Vine Mine a while ago & the saves for either weren't firing on the initial round - the person I was casting it on was able to dash out every time.
It was a while ago & I made the same suggestion at the time. I'm anxious to re-test it now...
I couldn't disagree more. The whole exercise of NS4 was to create an viable high level mod while getting away from the limited number of decent builds & playing styles a gear-based mod like NS3 enforces. I'm all for enhancements like extending the animal companion buffing spells to druid summons (druid-unique animal & "nature" summons, ideally), and possibly to the natural/animal shapeshifting forms, but pigeonholing all druids as primarily shapeshifters is way too limiting & just duplicates the function of the shifter.
In terms of PvM casting power, no other casting build can lay down as much damage, with the possible exception of a sorc/wiz combo build, but for PvP purposes, they need tweaking. For example, relying on AoE spells for city defense almost always ends up with your home faction turning hostile to you, as guards rush (or are led) into damaging field spells.
It'd be nice if there was a roughly equal chance for immobilizers to go either way. Bigby's Crushing is a good example. Instead of the strength check, which doesn't really help dexers or casters much, a roll incorporating Str, Dex, Will(?), Discipline & Tumble would make for a more balanced way of determining the outcome, the idea being to make it possible for a variety of builds to have a chance against it without making any one build completely immune. Or at least making that one immune build take substantial penalties in other respects to get that immunity.
A lot of these problems would be moot with better group composition & co-operation, but apart from the Okies & maybe the CLAD people, there still seems to be a lot of people operating in a two-players-in-a-duel mindset.
It was a while ago & I made the same suggestion at the time. I'm anxious to re-test it now...
Mad_Bovine wrote:...a druid shouldn't be relying on spells for anythign but enhancements to their shapeshifting abilities...
I couldn't disagree more. The whole exercise of NS4 was to create an viable high level mod while getting away from the limited number of decent builds & playing styles a gear-based mod like NS3 enforces. I'm all for enhancements like extending the animal companion buffing spells to druid summons (druid-unique animal & "nature" summons, ideally), and possibly to the natural/animal shapeshifting forms, but pigeonholing all druids as primarily shapeshifters is way too limiting & just duplicates the function of the shifter.
In terms of PvM casting power, no other casting build can lay down as much damage, with the possible exception of a sorc/wiz combo build, but for PvP purposes, they need tweaking. For example, relying on AoE spells for city defense almost always ends up with your home faction turning hostile to you, as guards rush (or are led) into damaging field spells.
satantrik wrote:Disabling effects are being rethought across the board. It is my opinion that the player should always be able to do <i>something</i>, and not just "wait to die". Unfortunately nothing can be done, as far as I know, to Death Attack because it's handled in-engine and not scripts.
It'd be nice if there was a roughly equal chance for immobilizers to go either way. Bigby's Crushing is a good example. Instead of the strength check, which doesn't really help dexers or casters much, a roll incorporating Str, Dex, Will(?), Discipline & Tumble would make for a more balanced way of determining the outcome, the idea being to make it possible for a variety of builds to have a chance against it without making any one build completely immune. Or at least making that one immune build take substantial penalties in other respects to get that immunity.
A lot of these problems would be moot with better group composition & co-operation, but apart from the Okies & maybe the CLAD people, there still seems to be a lot of people operating in a two-players-in-a-duel mindset.
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AlienOverlord
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It seems that even high str builds are not able to avoid bigbys, at least if they could it would be a spell better used for rogues and clerics, instead it just stops everyone. I think it would be better to have different flavors of the same spell, one that is a will save to use on fighters etc. At least then it would require a little thought, though it would make sorc better of then wizards who would need to mem multiple of the same spell.
The stonehold fires the round it is cast. The moment it hits enemies they have to make a save or it paralyses them about few seconds later. Also all such effects as storm of vengenace are meant to be used in a different way you are trying to. A druid should stand in the middle of SoV and cast at the enemy. The enemy has the option of running out the first round it is cast but if they are melee they can't reach you in it. If they are mages they should have mantles, so they would be able to run out anyway.Bob wrote:The druid-specific immobilizer spells (Vine Mine, Stonehold, even S of V to some extent) suffer from the same defect in comparison to the cleric & arcane immobilizers - the immobilization check doesn't fire on the first round the spell is in effect.
This means they are all but useless in PvP (unless you intend to cast them on spawn-in points) as all you have to do is run out of the AoE before the second round to avoid the spell effect.
Speaking of clerc&arcane immobilizers... I can't think of no AoE except Black tentacles. Those have fort save and so they suck.
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Brennan068
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I have a couple of comments re. druids here.
First I agree with bovine; unnerf the animal empathy skill. It is an expensive skill to develop as it is; seeing as how there are skills that have obvious immediate bonuses (even cross class tumble adds to ac, cross class discipline helps you survive when fighters and monks spam kd on you etc.) It should have the rewards that it is designed to have; the druid (or ranger) should be able to convince an attacking creature that (s)he is not the enemy (that mean old spellcaster who ripped the poor creature out of it's home is
.)
Second Druids pay for their powerful spells by having a severely limited selection. Compare a druid's spellbook to a clerics; the cleric has a much wider selection. Do not nerf their attrition spells.
For a direct response to this, stonehold is a will save. That is a primary save for wizzies & sorcs & clerics so I hope there is no argument here for making it easier on them. Second, pure fighters have so many feats that unless they gimp themselves, they can have good enough will saves to not "wait to die". Third, I don't think I've seen an upper level pure fighter on the world.... they all have cleric cross (high will save) or COT or Pally (again, high saves across the board.) I've used stonehold on dwarf fighter npcs and they've made their saves often enough to get through a greased stonehold region to get to me... so a pc who cannot get his will save high enough to be able to do something ... well
Bigby's is tough, I know it can be beaten... I'm just not sure how off the top of my head.
It has been said before, but I believe it has to be said again. The nerfing is getting out of hand. I believe that nerfing the few powerful spells that a druid has will result in no druids playing on the world except for those few dedicated shifter types (and once they are shifters, they are not really druids anymore, the mentality shifts from 'what spell' to 'what shape'.) This will empty The Circle as a faction (it is already pretty empty.) Rangers can be built better elsewhere as can barbarians and clerics. We don't have access to fighters, monks or rogues... (gimping the good shifter builds, but that's another story )
I don't really want to be super confrontational here, but the bug list is pretty long as it is. Why does it seem that the devs are spending so much time gimping the character builds instead of fixing the bugs that have been found already? There is currently a lot of diversity in the character builds, which as I understand it was one of the goals here. By gimping, nerfing, limiting, whatever word you choose to use to describe it, you are starting to force people into molds (T&T cleric anyone?). See the comments by Spura regarding the bigby/isaac sorcs... do you really think that anybody making a sorc now is not going to make sure he has the no save spells in his arsenaul? I believe that most sorcs currently are clones. Someone looking to make one will ask a high level one 'what spells?', and dupe that.. Why else would they all have web hotbarred?
I appreciate what the devs are doing here, I'm just asking for a moratorium on the gimping until it can be determined that the world really is tilting.
First I agree with bovine; unnerf the animal empathy skill. It is an expensive skill to develop as it is; seeing as how there are skills that have obvious immediate bonuses (even cross class tumble adds to ac, cross class discipline helps you survive when fighters and monks spam kd on you etc.) It should have the rewards that it is designed to have; the druid (or ranger) should be able to convince an attacking creature that (s)he is not the enemy (that mean old spellcaster who ripped the poor creature out of it's home is
.)
Second Druids pay for their powerful spells by having a severely limited selection. Compare a druid's spellbook to a clerics; the cleric has a much wider selection. Do not nerf their attrition spells.
satantrik wrote:
Disabling effects are being rethought across the board. It is my opinion that the player should always be able to do something, and not just "wait to die". Unfortunately nothing can be done, as far as I know, to Death Attack because it's handled in-engine and not scripts.
For a direct response to this, stonehold is a will save. That is a primary save for wizzies & sorcs & clerics so I hope there is no argument here for making it easier on them. Second, pure fighters have so many feats that unless they gimp themselves, they can have good enough will saves to not "wait to die". Third, I don't think I've seen an upper level pure fighter on the world.... they all have cleric cross (high will save) or COT or Pally (again, high saves across the board.) I've used stonehold on dwarf fighter npcs and they've made their saves often enough to get through a greased stonehold region to get to me... so a pc who cannot get his will save high enough to be able to do something ... well
Bigby's is tough, I know it can be beaten... I'm just not sure how off the top of my head.
It has been said before, but I believe it has to be said again. The nerfing is getting out of hand. I believe that nerfing the few powerful spells that a druid has will result in no druids playing on the world except for those few dedicated shifter types (and once they are shifters, they are not really druids anymore, the mentality shifts from 'what spell' to 'what shape'.) This will empty The Circle as a faction (it is already pretty empty.) Rangers can be built better elsewhere as can barbarians and clerics. We don't have access to fighters, monks or rogues... (gimping the good shifter builds, but that's another story
)
I don't really want to be super confrontational here, but the bug list is pretty long as it is. Why does it seem that the devs are spending so much time gimping the character builds instead of fixing the bugs that have been found already? There is currently a lot of diversity in the character builds, which as I understand it was one of the goals here. By gimping, nerfing, limiting, whatever word you choose to use to describe it, you are starting to force people into molds (T&T cleric anyone?). See the comments by Spura regarding the bigby/isaac sorcs... do you really think that anybody making a sorc now is not going to make sure he has the no save spells in his arsenaul? I believe that most sorcs currently are clones. Someone looking to make one will ask a high level one 'what spells?', and dupe that.. Why else would they all have web hotbarred?
I appreciate what the devs are doing here, I'm just asking for a moratorium on the gimping until it can be determined that the world really is tilting.
Animal Empathy : I have grabbed other caster's summons with this skill. Just remember your can only empathise with animals, beasts and magical beasts. In addition, a number of the celestial creature summons have mind immunity making them immune to dominate.
I have however noticed a lot of creatures that should be animals but aren't. The dire bears west of the crossroads spring to mind, along with a number of dog like creatures in nearby areas.
Is it possible to include vermin in the list of creatures that empathy will work on? It seems odd that a druid can have a spider as a companion but is unable to empathise with other spiders. Not to mention those cute fuzzy rats.
Magic Fang and Greater Magic Fang : Allow the hit and damage bonus to work on the druid as well as his (absent) companion but only while he is shifted.
Another idea to bump up Earthquake, Bombardment and any other spells that deal out physical damage. Make the damage act as if it is coming from a magical weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 per 5 caster levels. That way at level 25 the physical damage spells will be able to ignore Stoneskin and Premonition and by level 40 they will have +8 enhancement for beating damage soak.
I have however noticed a lot of creatures that should be animals but aren't. The dire bears west of the crossroads spring to mind, along with a number of dog like creatures in nearby areas.
Is it possible to include vermin in the list of creatures that empathy will work on? It seems odd that a druid can have a spider as a companion but is unable to empathise with other spiders. Not to mention those cute fuzzy rats.
Magic Fang and Greater Magic Fang : Allow the hit and damage bonus to work on the druid as well as his (absent) companion but only while he is shifted.
Another idea to bump up Earthquake, Bombardment and any other spells that deal out physical damage. Make the damage act as if it is coming from a magical weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 per 5 caster levels. That way at level 25 the physical damage spells will be able to ignore Stoneskin and Premonition and by level 40 they will have +8 enhancement for beating damage soak.
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Brennan068
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Denort wrote:Animal Empathy : I have grabbed other caster's summons with this skill. .
I had grabbed other caster's summons with Animal empathy before the summons changes. Part of the change resulted in the removal of this ability. I and others experimented with this one day... I was successful with my empathy check on all creatures, however they were all immune to the effect. We did this with all levels of summons and, we thought, all alignment varieties.
Have you been successful with grabbing a single summons since the changes? If so, what was the summon?
Denort wrote:Is it possible to include vermin in the list of creatures that empathy will work on? It seems odd that a druid can have a spider as a companion but is unable to empathise with other spiders. Not to mention those cute fuzzy rats.
All vermin are automatically tagged with Immunity: Mind Spells. I don't have my books on hand, but the reasoning has something to do with how simple or alien most vermin's minds are.
Denort wrote:Magic Fang and Greater Magic Fang : Allow the hit and damage bonus to work on the druid as well as his (absent) companion but only while he is shifted.
The "Magic Fang" series of spells are the unarmed analog to the "Magic Weapon" series. Expanding their utility a little beyond animal companion-only makes sense as "Magic Weapon" is useful for anybody summoned, player, or creature using a weapon. Expanding the affected groups not necessarily to unarmed, but to creature weapons-only and only certain racial groups: certainly animal, beast, and magical beast for example.
"Cats aren't domesticated, they're just not big enough to kill you." -Phil Athans, former WotC employee
[edit - double post.]
[2nd edit - Might as well use the existing post...
Stonehold - Yes, it is firing on the first round now. Looks like it's just Vine Mine that goes on the second round currently.
Storm of Vengeance- As much as the existence of real-life proof of clairvoyance intrigues me, I don't think I mentioned how I was using Storm of Vengeance, beyond using it as an example of a spell w/ effects that don't fire on the first round, but probably should.
The standard cleric AoE immobilizer would be Word of Faith. I don't play clerics so I can't comment on the NS4 implementation. If the spell gets reactivated, the wiz/sorc AoE immobilizer is Time Stop.]
[2nd edit - Might as well use the existing post...
Stonehold - Yes, it is firing on the first round now. Looks like it's just Vine Mine that goes on the second round currently.
Storm of Vengeance- As much as the existence of real-life proof of clairvoyance intrigues me, I don't think I mentioned how I was using Storm of Vengeance, beyond using it as an example of a spell w/ effects that don't fire on the first round, but probably should.
The standard cleric AoE immobilizer would be Word of Faith. I don't play clerics so I can't comment on the NS4 implementation. If the spell gets reactivated, the wiz/sorc AoE immobilizer is Time Stop.]
Brennan068 wrote:Have you been successful with grabbing a single summons since the changes? If so, what was the summon?
The most recent one I can remember was just a couple of days ago. It was one of the bisons, not sure if it was dire or celestial. Most summons I see now are humanoid or elemental so I have not been able to test any of the other animal type summons.
If the majority have been given mind immunity then I definately agree with you. The ability "convert" a summon to your cause has always been a great ability of druid and ranger.
There is one thing I am not sure about. When the caster dies the creature is unsummoned but can the caster not just unsummon the creature manually once it has been dominated?
satantrik wrote:The "Magic Fang" series of spells are the unarmed analog to the "Magic Weapon" series.
Isn't it more like Divine Favour? Giving a bonus to hit and magical damage up to +5/+5? In which case allowing it to work on the druid while shifted (or the ranger while polymorphed) would help both classes out significantly, since Greater Magic Fang lasts for 1 turn per level instead of just 1 turn like Divine Favour.