Shifters Overpowered? Just Right? Glaring Weaknesses?

[cRaZy8or5e]

A lot of discussion about this in other topics unrelated to the subject.

I used to be of the mind that the epic/ancient forms for shifters should be nerfed. Having fought against them a lot lately, I believe that is an erroneous position. Shifted forms have glaring weaknesses that can be exploited if you use the ol' nogin.

However *puts on benedict arnold hat*, I do think that it should be more difficult to get them. More should have to be invested in order to get these shapes. Maybe increase the amount of shifted levels required to have epic shifter forms, make it a blanket 25. Also, make it so that their ability stats are set. So instead of a 50 str 40 dex Kobold set his dex at 18 so you have a 50 str 30 dex char. Instead of a 52 dex 40 con HiPSer drow, you have a 52 dex drow 30 con.

I think leaving the ability stats to be the same as the shifter's original form was a neat idea, but resulted in some very powerful builds. I think you should maybe allow that for the epic feated shapes (construct, oustider, dragon, undead), but for the free shapes(greater wildshape/humanoid shape), it should require a greater investment to acheive the epic forms as they are now.

Other ideas on how to nerf/fix/change shifters and druids?

I'm of the mind that druids have taken enough of a beating and are perfectly fine just the way they are, elemental shapes, hellballs, dragons and all.

[Kromix]

i object!

druids have not taken as hard of a beating as a mage has...


let the beating continue!

[burrahobbit]

i object!!

mages are overpowered

Didnt take long to hijack this thread, well done Krom, i salute you...

[Daral0085]

However *puts on benedict arnold hat*

Traitor! *writes down Crazy's name to schedule his Inquisition meeting while angrily muttering*

[Rufio]

Honestly, I have gotten away from making shifters because I have been able to make statistically equal or better builds without having the drawbacks of being shifted.

Really the most powerful shifted form in terms of pure killing and tanking power is still a dragon. They might not have epic dodge, but they still can get a decent ac, bonus damage reduction, lots of hp, and more ab and damage than any other shifter that you could possibly make.

[Rufio]

*moved from other thread*

What is with this aura of greatness around CoN Moi? Seriously, there is nothing special about the build other than it is a shifter.

In fact, This is the build.

Druid(6), Shifter(17), Rogue(17), Ghostwise

STR: 12
DEX: 18 (25)
CON: 14 (18)
WIS: 12 (13)
INT: 12
CHA: 8

Ghostwise: (Fearless, Good Aim, Lucky, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Move Silently, Small Stature)
01: Rogue(1): Stealthy, (DEX=20)
02: Druid(1)
03: Druid(2): Alertness
04: Druid(3): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
05: Druid(4)
06: Druid(5): Skill Focus: Hide
07: Shifter(1)
08: Shifter(2): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
09: Shifter(3): Weapon Focus: Shortsword
10: Shifter(4)
11: Shifter(5)
12: Shifter(6): DEX+1, Improved Critical: Shortsword, (DEX=23)
13: Shifter(7)
14: Shifter(8)
15: Rogue(2): Blind Fight, {Evasion}
16: Rogue(3): DEX+1, {Uncanny Dodge I}, (DEX=24)
17: Rogue(4)
18: Rogue(5): Great Fortitude
19: Rogue(6)
20: Rogue(7): DEX+1, (DEX=25)
21: Shifter(9): Blinding Speed
22: Shifter(10)
23: Shifter(11)
24: Shifter(12): CON+1, Epic Skill Focus: Hide, (CON=15)
25: Shifter(13): Epic Energy Resistance: Cold I
26: Shifter(14)
27: Shifter(15): Epic Weapon Focus: Shortsword
28: Shifter(16): CON+1, Epic Energy Resistance: Sonic I, (CON=16)
29: Shifter(17)
30: Rogue(8): Epic Prowess
31: Rogue(9)
32: Rogue(10): CON+1, Improved Evasion, (CON=17)
33: Rogue(11): Armor Skin
34: Rogue(12)
35: Rogue(13): Defensive Roll
36: Rogue(14): CON+1, Epic Dodge, (CON=18)
37: Rogue(15)
38: Rogue(16): Crippling Strike
39: Druid(6): Epic Skill Focus: Discipline
40: Rogue(17): WIS+1, (WIS=13)

Hitpoints: 446
Skillpoints: 295
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 29/20/30
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8, Traps: +4, Fear: +4
BAB: 24
AB (max, naked): 30 (melee), 34 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 28/31
Spell Casting: Druid(2)
Alignment Changes: 0

Discipline 21(32), Hide 43(65), Move Silently 43(54), Spellcraft 42(43), Spot 43(46), Tumble 43(50), UMD 39(38)

Hide:
21 dex
43 ranks
15 feats
10 ghostwise
7 armor
7 cloak
8 boots
2 rings
4 shield
4 one with the land
_____
121 hide

AB:
24 bab
21 dex
4 feats
1 blinding
7 weapon (was holding a mace from HoD the only time I ever saw it)
2 (only if outdoors)
1 ghostwise token
______
60 ab

AC:
10 base
21 dex
6 armor
7 small shield
5 natural
5 deflection
6 double dodge from boots
2 blinding
2 armor skin
8 tumble
______
72 ac

Fort: 23 base + 4 base con + 4 belt con - 1 drow form con + 4 belt + 2 feat = 36
Will: 19 base + 1 base wis + 3 amulet will + 4 amulet wis + 2 rings = 29

Discipline: 21 ranks + 1 str + 6 barcer+bull's + 20 shifted bonus + 10 esf: discipline + 7 helm + 8 rings = 73 discipline

HP: 566 shifted w/ crafted belt

Other notes: only has 3 attacks, 4 with haste, and does 9d6 sneak damage (drow sneak damage does NOT stack with rogue sneak damage.)



Now. None of these numbers are all that high, except hide, but it isn't even that high compared to other ghostwise hispers. That is a ghostwise/sd issue. I can get a hide of 130+ with other ghostwise builds that do much better damage. Essentially con moi has sacrificed sneak attack damage for survivability over most other sd's. HP is a little better than other SD's, but still pretty average. and ac is comparable to other monk hipsers, except it can use a shield.

Also note that numbers aren't everything. He can't do a thing besides hips, and attack in melee. You know exactly what it is going to do every battle, because it can't possibly do anything else.

Someone said it gets druid and other shifter forms. Yeah, it does, except it only gets level 3 spells, the only buffs of much use to this are bull's, one with the land, and camouflage. UMD provides way better buffs than these, and that isn't a druid thing. Other shifter forms are mostly unusable because the build was done around drow form. None of the others can hips and he will lose ac and ab by shifting into them because he will loose dex and won't have the right weapon focuses.



There is nothing significant or devastating about this build, other than the fact that people see a shifter and immediately think "overpowered". If anything it is overpowered because hipsing is overpowered.

[Tsavong]

Not trying to go off-topic (since bashing off-topicness is the new, hot thing) but I don't think that is Con Moi's build... I still can't see how that build even gets hips.

Drow shape has Hide in Plain Sight Bargeld that makes shifters the only class other than SDs that can get hips.

[cRaZy8or5e]

Not trying to go off-topic (since bashing off-topicness is the new, hot thing) but I don't think that is Con Moi's build... I still can't see how that build even gets hips.

To shadow... I fought all those toons before the event. Many months ago, Alkpwn made an illithid and showed the over-uberness of that unique build. We've been fighing combaticus and Con Moi and twig and at least 3 druid dragons i can think of off the top of my head for a long time. It's not an issue of new-ness. Shifters were new like last year. In the middle of the year. When you say it is 'up to us to figure out how to beat em' it translates to me as 'pick a different toon that it isn't immune to'. And not just my assassin. Twig has raided SL in a number of forms and was the last man standing with 5 people trying to beat him down. It's really a matter of the very few things they actually have vulnerabilities to, and due to their versatility, they have the option of picking a different form for different abilities to suit the scenario. Most other players have to wait 30 mins and just pick a different toon.

Apparently this all belongs in the other thread, but it's hard to respond across threads.

I've killed several of these so called uber shifters by my lonesome, with a wizard that hasn't read any books.

Mages are the best way to kill things. Try it you'll like it. Just recently I aided an SL raid where we held the TC cradle against even up odds defenders with several different kinds of shifters(Elda's dragon, a tiger, and a demonflesh golem) a CoT stunner and an sd stunner trying to get in and managed to pull three relics. We didn't get out purely because we pulled three and paid for our greed, BUT we held them off for quite some time. Even up odds, with a pure barbarian, an AA, a lvl 38 wizard, a zen cleric, and I forget who else was there with us. Either way holding a cradle with even up odds shouldn't be possible if said builds are overpowered.

Or it could be they were wasting themselves trying to get to the wizard standing in the back inhibiting them in whatever way he could think of and dropping the boom, which in turn allowed the beaters to do their thing as well. Every shifter out there has GLARING weaknesses. In my experience they go down pretty easily with a mage.

Someone made the comment that drow shifters are OPed because you can't spot them, and specifically you can't build good spotters in SL. This wins my vote for most hilarious comment in the other thread.

Team play (ie a buffer and a spotter) are essential when trying to kill uber hiders. You can build a self buffing uber spotter, but you end up sacrificing in one way shape or form either in defenses, buff strength(caster lvls), or offensive firepower. The best spotter/HiPS killers typically are buffed by others. A mk/AA is one of the ultimate HiPSer killers out there. Especially if you decide to make it a pure zen/wisdom based build. ONLY SL and AO can make mk/AA's which actually can self buff to a certain degree even. I'd still want a buffer to buff them but if you have to its possible to make them self buffing. But I'd still build it to have a bard to buff him and you'll be happy.

OR you could just make mages and spam AoE spells, that works wonders as well.

I've fought on both sides of this argument, and while I agree some things that shifters are capable of I believe are come by too easily, they're not inherently overpowered as they are.

The argument that "me and my friends can't kill them so they must be overpowered" is inherently wrong as my brother and I have killed them, alot with mages. I don't think that we're just "better" players, though because we see the other side of the builds we have better ideas of where to target the builds. The reality is that we have kicked around a lot of Shifter builds between the two of us and have some good ideas of how to attack them.

Bargled I told you once, and I'll say it again, build some of these overpowered toons so you can see how to attack them. Don't concentrate on where their strengths are. Every one of them has inherent weaknesses, you just have to find them.

[Rufio]

shadow dancers also murder most shifters, because nearly every high-ac shifter is a githzerai (4 free ac)

[Daral0085]

I'd really like if we could make it through a "nerf shifter" thread without pointing out the various ways you can beat a shifter. The last thing I want is people from other factions to know how to beat shifters, or even worse, the tactics we use to mitigate the risk that others can beat our shifters.

But with all that said, honestly it doesn't take a genius to point out that wizards/sorcs are the best counter to shifters (I'm only mentioning it now because CrazyHorse has already said it, as well as Mining, etc). I've tried to avoid saying it because I don't want to have to deal with it, but c'mon guys, stop embarrassing yourselves and just get some mages to kill our shifters. And yes, we will kill your stupid mages early, if not first. We're not going to let everyone beat us, you have to work for it.

In fact, here's a bit of advice: mages are the counter to almost every high AC build, because their direct damage spells bypass AC, and have no saving throw. Amazing!


And also Crazy, my SD stunner only arrived in the last battle when we killed all y'all. If I had showed up sooner, y'all woulda died sooner. Fun fact: Diego is the murder capital of the USA. The prior statement may be a slight exaggeration.

But yes, I definitely agree that shifters are not the end-all of toons on Aetheria. Given the sort of builds we're spec'ing in NC (coming to a persistent world near you!), I'd say we have even stronger melee builds there. Mostly we lose epic dodge (grumble grumble ROGUE), but tend to get much better AB values and same, if not better, damage output. And I further agree with your point regarding having a balanced team. That's extremely important both in terms of utilizing shifters (a team of nothing but shifters is pretty crappy) and in terms of beating them.

[Daral0085]

Oh yeah, and with SDs, that's not really a shifter-specific thing. SDs have a very strong advantage vs. any non-keen spotter. That's true if you're playing a shifter, RDD dragon, DwD, pure barb/fighter, etc, etc.

[Sneakypie]

I'm famous today, my name, guesses at my build, and numbers being discussed here and in other posts.

I just want to say that I'm far from the only strong shifter out there.

[Rufio]

I'm famous today, my name, guesses at my build, and numbers being discussed here and in other posts.

I just want to say that I'm far from the only strong shifter out there.

You missed the point. There is nothing strong that the shifter class gives your build. It is a hipser with high hide. I can make any sd like that, but mine will be better, because I won't have wasted 22 levels on something that I can get in 5.

You don't even get a hide boost at all from drow shape. You lose small stature bonuses and job bonuses, so you are actually hurting yourself.

Hips is powerful no matter what build it is on.

[Rainswept]

Rufio, nothing personal man, but if you can make an SD that matches the stats you posted I'd like to see that.

[Mixtli]

I agree 100% with Rufio.

I had a build similar to the one discussed pre-wipe (Meriam - kobold based than). First thing i wanted to do when i came back to NS was to make the same build again. But i didn't, because the build is simply no good any more.

It is so feat starved, too many things to sacrifice. If you want a shifting hipser, Elemental is much better for pvp, even tough it has less hide/ms.

Countering this type of drow shape is easy.

Also a reason why it is not played in TSS (maybe 1 build??). Standard hipsers are so much better.