Spike Growth, Entangle, and Vine Mine

[Eldaquen]

Entangle, spike growth, and vine mine.

These three spells have been disabled for some time. I understand reason for the disabling, and do not want to see a class suffer due to how one of the three was used to the detreminte of Dev's hard work. I humbly wish to submit ideas to re-implement these in a different manner so they will not cause issues with NS4's AI. I know what I am about to put forth is not PnP nor 3.5 rules, however NS4 is an unique place that does not always follow PnP rules when it benefits NS4 and those that enjoy playing here.

Starting with Spike Growth a 3rd level druid spell. Bioware implemented so the spell covers the terrain with small spikes. I believe this is the root cause of the spell causing the AI issue. So propose it be changed to a ranged attack causing 1 time damage to a single target, similar as Quillfire does now.
Role play reason or new description: spikes or thorns grow under the victum's skin inflicting piercing damage as they grow outward.

To balance out damage change to 1d4 piercing damage plus 1d4 pierce per 2 caster levels. Maximun damage to be determined by spell focuses as outlined below:
No focus: Maximum pierce damage 40
Spell focus: Maximum pierce damage 50
Greater spell focus: Maximum pierce damage 60
Epic Spell focus: Maximum pierce damage 80

A level progression of damage for a non focused druid caster follows:
Caster level ..................Damage in pierce..........Maximum damage (assuming max roll)
......................................................................No Focus.....Focus.........Greater......Epic
5..................................2d4..............................8................8................8................8
6..................................3d4..............................12..............12..............12..............12
8..................................4d4..............................16..............16..............16..............16
10................................5d4..............................20..............20..............20..............20
12................................6d4..............................24..............24..............24..............24
14................................7d4..............................28..............28..............28..............28
16................................8d4..............................32..............32..............32..............32
18................................9d4..............................36..............36..............36..............36
20................................10d4............................40..............40..............40..............40
22................................11d4............................40..............44..............44..............44
24................................12d4............................40..............48..............48..............48
26................................13d4............................40..............50..............52..............52
28................................14d4............................40..............50..............56..............56
30................................15d4............................40..............50..............60..............60
32................................16d4............................40..............50..............60..............64
34................................17d4............................40..............50..............60..............68
36................................18d4............................40..............50..............60..............72
38................................19d4............................40..............50..............60..............76
40................................20d4............................40..............50..............60..............80

If changed as outlined above, the negative affect to AI (AoE affect) would no longer occur. The damage as outlined above is not unbalanced because the damage type is of one type (pierce). Also, in order to acheive maximum damage the druid would need to be focus on being a caster forgoing multi-classing reducing discipline, saves, AB, AC, etc. Finally since only dealing pierce the damage dealt would be subject to the armor and shield protection of the damage receipent.

Examples:
Pure level 40 druid, who is epic focused in conjure would have potential damage with this change of: 20d4 pierce or a maximum of 80 points per cast. If the opponent is using a Ragnar's Burial shield the maximum damage they would receive is reduced by the shields 25% pierce immunity and 20 pierce reduction. In this example if max roll of 80 pierce damage was dealt then the immunity would absorb 20 points, the reduction would absorb 20 points leaving only 40 points of damage dealt. Yes if the opponent is not using pierce protection the potential is maximum of 80 pierce. However, due to the number of archers about, most players have pierce protection readily available.

A druid with only 20 caster levels would only be able to do 10d4 pierce damage. Even if epic focused in conjure. If cast against the same opponent using Ragnar's burial shield, the opponent's shield would absorb 30 points of pierce damage leaving only 10 pierce damage dealt against their hps.

A druid with only 32 caster levels pierce damage would be 16d4 pierce damage, a maximum of 64 pierce damage. Against the same opponent and shield, the shield would absorb 36 pierce damage leaving 28 pierce damage dealt.

The above is not unbalanced because only 1 damage type dealt, maximums are reasonable, max rolls are infrequent in game, and there are plenty of pierce protection options available to all builds in NS4.

Epic Damage reduction, Epic mage armor, Earth gen token, Barbarian Damage reduction, Dwarven Defender reduction, stone skin, greater stone skin, and premontion would all reduce the damage received if the dev's accept this proposal. Further balancing the spell.

I am working on alternate options for Vine mine and entangle. Hope to have ideas posted soon.

Edited to fix double posting of same information.

[Rainswept]

Yes, cause I so often find myself thinking that druid casters are both weak and lacking in versatility. What the server really needs is to implement more ways in which they can be effective. Why just the other day I was fighting a self buffed dragon who floored me with a party friendly hellball, and I thought, gee, that poor little thing, how sad for it not to have more powers.

[Eldaquen]

Vine Mine: again I believe the issue is the area affect and heart beat that is causing the issue with NPC'S AI. (If that is not the case, please describe the issue so I might put forth alternative ideas to resolve.)

There are three options within this spell: Camoflague, Hamper movement, and entangle.

Starting with how the spell is implemented. Instead of the AoE affect that bioware wrote, I propose changing so the spell for each option acts similar to what was done for Glyph of Warding and delayed blast fireball. This will remove the heart beat issue that I believe is causing the AI issues. The area of affect I propose to be determined by the caster's spell focuses as follows:

No focus...............5 feet
Spell focus.............10 feet
Greater Focus........15 feet
Epic Focus.............20 feet

Up to 3 casts per caster per map. Hostile casters casting another does not cancel out hostile's existing mines. Only 1 type per caster per map (so a camoflague, hamper movement and entangle can exist at once, but 3 hamper movements can not). If this is to much then 1 per caster per map but hostile casters will not remove existing, and theirs are allowed to exist at same time as the existing.

When a creature comes into range the vine MINE it is set off. Playing on the name, specifically the word mine. Change the spell to a mine, like a trap. Since removing the on going possibility of inflicting multiple players that wander into terrian (area) affected by vine mine, propose a damage componet be added to compensate. Rationale: when a mine goes off shrapnal from the mine rip thru those unfortunate to be in the way and the concussion from the expansion of gases powering the explosion spreading around the affected area causing damage. Damage different for each type that was set up.

Each option, camoflague, hamper movement and entangle to have different affects.

Camoflague:
The purpose of this origianlly was to provide all in the affected area to be given a hide bonus. I propose this be modified so more of a pepper spray affect....inflicting the receipent with pepper causing their eyes to tear up reducing their spot skill. The amount of reduction based on the casters focuses as follows:
no focus...............5 point reduction to spot
focus....................7 point reduction to spot
greater focus.........10 point reduction to spot
Epic focus.............12 point reduction to spot
Justification is with each focus the caster knows how to better distill plants that provide the pepper or irritant component, increasing its potentcy. No save because the pepper spray componet covers everything and inflicts everyone in the area of radius, friend and foe alike. Being hit with multiple Camoflague mines will not stack skill point reduction but the damage component will occur with each explosion. Damage inflicts friend and foe alike. If you were ever in a room that was sprayed with pepper spray, you'll understand why no save. The use of an Air Bladder or the Water plane's boss helm's special ability (forgot name) gives immunity from the skill point reduction. Water and Air Gen subrace immune because of their nature.

Duration of skill reduction based on focuses of caster:
No focus: rounds = Caster level/2
Focus: rounds = Caster level/2 plus 5 rounds
Greater focus: rounds = Caster level/2 plus 10 rounds
Epic focus: rounds = Caster level

Damage componet to camoflague. I propose piercing due to the stinging affect of the irritants that make up this type of mine. Caster's spell focuses increase the damage due to potency of the mine's componets gained with skill and knowledge the focuses provide.

Camoflague pierce damage:
No focus....................1d4 per 5 caster levels plus 1d6 acid
Focus.........................1d6 per 5 caster levels plus 1d8 acid
Greater focus..............1d8 per 5 caster levels plus 1d10 acid
Epic focus...................1d10 per 5 caster levels plus 1d12 acid

Pierce damage
Caster level............................No focus............................Focus.........................Greater Focus.......................Epic Focus
9th.........................................2d4+1d6 acid....................2d6+1d8acid...............2d8+1d10acid......................2d10+1d12acid
10th.......................................3d4+1d6 acid....................3d6+1d8acid...............3d8+1d10acid......................3d10+1d12acid
15th.......................................4d4+1d6 acid....................4d6+1d8acid...............4d8+1d10acid......................4d10+1d12acid
20th.......................................5d4+1d6 acid....................5d6+1d8acid...............5d8+1d10acid......................5d10+1d12acid
25th.......................................6d4+1d6 acid....................6d6+1d8acid...............6d8+1d10acid......................6d10+1d12acid
30th.......................................7d4+1d6 acid....................7d6+1d8acid...............7d8+1d10acid......................7d10+1d12acid
35nd......................................8d4+1d6 acid....................8d6+1d8acid...............8d8+1d10acid......................8d10+1d12acid
40th.......................................9d4+1d6 acid....................9d6+1d8acid...............9d8+1d10acid......................9d10+1d12acid

For Camoflague the damage type to be 1 type: Pierce, subject to pierce immunities and reductions worn by inflictee.

Hamper movement:
Bioware's version anyone that enters the terrain covered by vine hamper movement suffered a cumulative speed reduction. I keeping with the Mine/trap idea, and using simular implementation as Glyph of warding and delayed blast fireball I propose the following: still hamper movement but on a set non-cumulative amount (multiple hamper movement mines do not stack, but damage from explosion will still occur with each activation). Description/role play rational: mine sprays out a cold viscous material that sticks to everyone and everything in the blast radius, hampering the inflictee's movement and causing damage to those caught in the blast. Spell focuses impact the amount of reduction.
No focus: 25% speed reduction reduction
Focus: 30% speed reduction reduction and loss of 1 AC
Greater focus: 40% reduction, loss of 2 AC and 1 AB
Epic focus: 50% speed reduction, loss of 2 AC, 1 AB, and 1 Attack per round

Duration:
No focus: turns = Caster level/2
Focus: turns = Caster level/2 plus 5 turns
Greater focus: turns = Caster level/2 plus 10 turns
Epic focus: turns = Caster level

FoM negates reduction to speed but not damage component.

Bludge damage component of Hamper movement mine. Liquid is so heavy that the force of the explosion causes bludge damage to all in the blast radius. The liquid has a numbing affect so also inflicts cold damage to those inflicted.
Caster level............................No focus............................Focus.........................Greater Focus.......................Epic Focus
9th.........................................2d4+1d6cold......................2d6+1d8cold................2d8+1d10cold...................2d10+1d12cold
10th.......................................3d4+1d6cold......................3d6+1d8cold................3d8+1d10cold...................3d10+1d12cold
15th.......................................4d4+1d6cold .....................4d6+1d8cold................4d8+1d10cold....................4d10+1d12cold
20th.......................................5d4+1d6cold......................5d6+1d8cold................5d8+1d10cold....................5d10+1d12cold
25th.......................................6d4+1d6cold......................6d6+1d8cold................6d8+1d10cold....................6d10+1d12cold
30th.......................................7d4+1d6cold .....................7d6+1d8cold................7d8+1d10cold....................7d10+1d12cold
35nd......................................8d4+1d6cold......................8d6+1d8cold................8d8+1d10cold....................8d10+1d12cold
40th.......................................9d4+1d6cold......................9d6+1d8cold................9d8+1d10cold....................9d10+1d12cold

Entangle:
Struggled with this one. First thought, still affects a radius but half that of the other 2 types, use the vine wrapping visual affect that the tanglefoot bag item does, and use similar script as the level 9 arcane spell Bigby's Crushing hand does. The spell level difference of Vine Mine (5th) vs. the spell level of Bigby's crushing hand (9th) should be enough to balance (if dev's accept vine mine version DC would be 4 lower than acrane).

Another idea was use similar scripting as stone hold, but change the visual affect to the one used for tanglefoot bag item. Also change the save from will to reflex. Duration similar as to stonehold.

Description/role play rationale: mine sends vine like shrappnel thoughout the blast radius ripping and slashing at all those unfortunate enough to be caught within the blast radius. Those caught make a reflex save or be held for duration of the spell, and take slashing/sonic damage based on caster's level and focuses.

Damage done by this type of mine: Slashing and sonic from the concussion of the blast:
Caster level............................No focus..............................Focus.............................Greater Focus......................Epic Focus
9th.........................................2d4+1d6sonic......................2d6+1d8sonic................2d8+1d10sonic....................2d10+1d12sonic
10th.......................................3d4+1d6sonic......................3d6+1d8sonic................3d8+1d10sonic....................3d10+1d12sonic
15th.......................................4d4+1d6sonic .....................4d6+1d8sonic................4d8+1d10sonic....................4d10+1d12sonic
20th.......................................5d4+1d6sonic......................5d6+1d8sonic................5d8+1d10sonic....................5d10+1d12sonic
25th.......................................6d4+1d6sonic......................6d6+1d8sonic................6d8+1d10sonic....................6d10+1d12sonic
30th.......................................7d4+1d6sonic .....................7d6+1d8sonic................7d8+1d10sonic....................7d10+1d12sonic
35nd......................................8d4+1d6sonic......................8d6+1d8sonic................8d8+1d10sonic....................8d10+1d12sonic
40th.......................................9d4+1d6sonic......................9d6+1d8sonic................9d8+1d10sonic....................9d10+1d12sonic

Damage not subject to reflex save but is subject to inflictee's damage protection worn, spell protection (premonition, resist elements, etc) and damage reduction feats, class (barbarian reduction) or subrace token.

The damage inflicted by each type is managable by the armor, shield, damage reduction, spell protections, etc. I attempted to set up so would be balanced to the server.

Your thoughts?

[Eldaquen]

Well I am trying to address 3 spells that cover 3 spell slot levels from the druid spell book. Where now there is a whole because they were disabled. In each suggestion attempted to balance, setting damage so there are ways for anyone to reduce and in some classes avoid damage all together.

Fixing this issue could be important to other arcane spells that have not been disabled yet but may be causing the same AI issue due to how bioware implementated area of effects spells. I can only imagine that spells that cover terrain in similar fashion as vine mine, spike growth and entangle have a similar impact on AI as these 3 do. If these cant be fixed then what are people going to do when arcane spells are disabled because someone solo's a boss that is not supposed to be solo'd due to how bioware's implemented spells.

I also desire to play a caster druid. I resort to dragon because that is the only option for the class in pvp. Druids that do not shift into a shape very rarely do well in pvp, one reason is due to vine mine being disabled.

[Eldaquen]

AORK also has druids, so saving these spells from disabled list helps AORK as much as it does TNC.

[Eldaquen]

A dragon is unable to cast spells. So changing does not necessarily affect or empower a dragon build. Shifting to cast a spell tends to cause the dragons demise rather than save it. So changing and undisabling helps caster druids more than dragon builds. In fact slaying a dragon because the controller attempted to use a spell is in the dragon's opponents favor when the dragon deshifts. So in that regard, changing these to something someone might want to use thereby encouraging an enbattle deshift in a way nerfs dragon and boasts those fighting a dragon. Besides, a proper dragon build is spending it's feats on melee type feats or to increase dex so able to obtain blinding speed. The druid that is able to shift into dragon shape but has no feats for melee does execptionally poorly in pvp, which is why I built a replacement specifically to be in dragonshape.

[burrahobbit]

Why just the other day I was fighting a self buffed dragon who floored me with a party friendly hellball, and I thought, gee, that poor little thing, how sad for it not to have more powers.

I'm sry, i shouldnt say anything but......

If we go by what floors you we would have to nerf most of the server.

[Shadowalker]

In reguards to the peper.. undead do not breathe, though they do still have eyes, but long since dried up? constructs dont breathe or have flesh eyes.. cept deomon.. but this maybe gettting to complicated

Vine Mine:

Camoflague:
The purpose of this origianlly was to provide all in the affected area to be given a hide bonus. I propose this be modified so more of a pepper spray affect....inflicting the receipent with pepper causing their eyes to tear up reducing their spot skill. The amount of reduction based on the casters focuses as follows:
no focus...............5 point reduction to spot
focus....................7 point reduction to spot
greater focus.........10 point reduction to spot
Epic focus.............12 point reduction to spot
Justification is with each focus the caster knows how to better distill plants that provide the pepper or irritant component, increasing its potentcy. No save because the pepper spray componet covers everything and inflicts everyone in the area of radius, friend and foe alike. Being hit with multiple Camoflague mines will not stack skill point reduction but the damage component will occur with each explosion. Damage inflicts friend and foe alike. If you were ever in a room that was sprayed with pepper spray, you'll understand why no save. The use of an Air Bladder or the Water plane's boss helm's special ability (forgot name) gives immunity from the skill point reduction. Water and Air Gen subrace immune because of their nature.

Duration of skill reduction based on focuses of caster:
No focus: rounds = Caster level/2
Focus: rounds = Caster level/2 plus 5 rounds
Greater focus: rounds = Caster level/2 plus 10 rounds
Epic focus: rounds = Caster level

Damage componet to camoflague. I propose piercing due to the stinging affect of the irritants that make up this type of mine. Caster's spell focuses increase the damage due to potency of the mine's componets gained with skill and knowledge the focuses provide.

Camoflague pierce damage:
No focus....................1d4 per 5 caster levels plus 1d6 acid
Focus.........................1d6 per 5 caster levels plus 1d8 acid
Greater focus..............1d8 per 5 caster levels plus 1d10 acid
Epic focus...................1d10 per 5 caster levels plus 1d12 acid

Pierce damage
Caster level............................No focus............................Focus.........................Greater Focus.......................Epic Focus
9th.........................................2d4+1d6 acid....................2d6+1d8acid...............2d8+1d10acid......................2d10+1d12acid
10th.......................................3d4+1d6 acid....................3d6+1d8acid...............3d8+1d10acid......................3d10+1d12acid
15th.......................................4d4+1d6 acid....................4d6+1d8acid...............4d8+1d10acid......................4d10+1d12acid
20th.......................................5d4+1d6 acid....................5d6+1d8acid...............5d8+1d10acid......................5d10+1d12acid
25th.......................................6d4+1d6 acid....................6d6+1d8acid...............6d8+1d10acid......................6d10+1d12acid
30th.......................................7d4+1d6 acid....................7d6+1d8acid...............7d8+1d10acid......................7d10+1d12acid
35nd......................................8d4+1d6 acid....................8d6+1d8acid...............8d8+1d10acid......................8d10+1d12acid
40th.......................................9d4+1d6 acid....................9d6+1d8acid...............9d8+1d10acid......................9d10+1d12acid

For Camoflague the damage type to be 1 type: Pierce, subject to pierce immunities and reductions worn by inflictee.

[Lokey]

lol rumors. They're disabled for two reasons: spammability (not wrapped in the one per type function) and 3 of the 5 have no save stackable movement hits. Lot of high end mobs don't have freedom for what's the word...variety...and they were getting farmed in some boring ways.

I attempted to fix, got a lot of whining, decided not to bother further. Have Malik on board to test, so we can look at doing something starting next week depending on a number of things.

PS druids still rock, but I can't think of a reason not to spend one feat on dragonshape. Trans druid can have a lot of fun, conj maybe. Yes it hurts that it's not like cleric and evo, but druid has a lot of things going for it too.

Heh, then maybe someday redo elemental shape (decrease stats, shorten duration and add a tier for like 35+ druid maybe)

[burrahobbit]

PS druids still rock, but I can't think of a reason not to spend one feat on dragonshape. Trans druid can have a lot of fun, conj maybe. Yes it hurts that it's not like cleric and evo, but druid has a lot of things going for it too.

Druids have no way of hasting with out multi classing or investing 25 dex. So, if you wanna get uber dc's, well, you cant.....

[rocketkai]

Heh, then maybe someday redo elemental shape (decrease stats, shorten duration and add a tier for like 35+ druid maybe)

that's gonna ruined half of my lvl 40 toons

[Amoenotep]

because haste is the main goal on this server

[mining]

because haste is the main goal on this server

You are absolutely correct. PVP, if it doesn't move faster than something hasted, the hasted thing just won.

[mining]

Yes, cause I so often find myself thinking that druid casters are both weak and lacking in versatility. What the server really needs is to implement more ways in which they can be effective. Why just the other day I was fighting a self buffed dragon who floored me with a party friendly hellball, and I thought, gee, that poor little thing, how sad for it not to have more powers.

I'm going to break this post down.

1) Caster =/= Dragon.

A 40 druid dragon, is a dragon. It can cast, yes, but only when unshifted. A 40 druid that is unshifted is squishy. Squishy like one of your toons . It has less disc. than any other caster, except maybe a hasted pure mage. It can't run off from things. It has minimal HP, or it likely sucks as a dragon. It has crap AC. Its saves are likely bad.

2) Hellball out of a druid dragon is pretty cool. But yet... There aren't all that many druid dragons around. Either Hellball isn't as awesome as you say it is, or druid dragons don't rock as much as you're implying they do.

3) Finally, I'd *hate* to see a druid dragon get nearly as many options as a pure fighter. That would be horrendous .

[burrahobbit]

because haste is the main goal on this server

yes