Epic Mage Armor nerf........

[Alkapwn]

This seriously sickens me. So many hours/days put into toons that can handle the Epic Planes and you go and Nerf the hell out of them.. What a waste of friggen time. I would like you to find one player that is alright with this nerf that isnt strictly NC obviously. Do I get to relevel my toons now or what!!! USELESS !!!
Were players complaining about it? I know you guys want our toons to suck but come'on.........................
Considering the average ab of most pvp'rs is in the 63-73 range I just don't see how this is balanced.......
You fixed it once and it was great! We could build mages and hybrids that could tackle the ridiculas hard planes and be viable in pvp. And then took it away..... *rage* You mind aswell just switch it back to bioware EMA and lose another -1ac.........

[VagaStorm]

Mind explaining what was changed? My main pvp toon uses epic ma, and the relic war starts tomorrow :p

[Rogue2x]

I agree. I think making epic mage armor give only +6 shield is a little excessive. Alkapwn is right, when the melee toons are able to keep their ab in the 60-70 range, I don't see what was unbalanced about +12. The only toons around that are literally unhittable are the 30PMs, and it's not the epic mage armor that's doing that.

Besides, Epic MA is the only thing helping a mage's ac against hipsers and being flatfooted.

I also have never heard anyone complain about epic mage armor and/or AC builds. If the players themselves don't have a problem with it, and the vast majority like the spell as it is, I don't understand why it needed to be changed. And especially to such an extent. -6ac is really killer, especially since most mages don't have a high AC to begin with.

[Bishop99]

The problem with this change is that it screws near-pure mages. Sure it hurts the cheesy-dexer IGMS spammers, but not that badly... You can still build a monk/wiz with 84 ac, your rdd/monk/sorcerers will still have like 78-80 ac, the 30 pm is still gonna be "unhittable"

If we want to change this (which I'd rather not and just have it back to normal +12 and give blindness the normal flatfooted effect)... make it dispellable and scale with level. That way you solve the cheesy AC builds- the PM, RDD, and monk mixes- yet you save the near-pure/pure wiz/sorc's.

21 = +6
24 = +7
27 = +8
30 = +9
33 = +10
36 = +12
40 = +14

This way, pure casters still get some nice AC- the cheesy mix's get less due to getting AC from: RDD, PM, Monk. It'd also give the option for an epic dispeller to have a chance at dispelling it since 84 ac is still rediculous and without WOF you're not gonna hit that.

[Cijah]

As an NC player who cannot get this wonderful feat, I too don't understand why it was nerfed without consultation with the player base. Of course, perhaps there is no nerf at all and simply a bug which has crept in from some other modification and an unintended consequence.

If it has been nerfed the only reason that comes to mind is sour grapes from players who have a DM's "ear" (ouch that's got to hurt) and whined loud enough to cause them a splitting headache! The rest of us would have seen the whingerama posts in the forums, otherwise

Or here's a thought maybe the DM's don't like us any more

[Daltian]

Saying 70ab is common is a bit over the top. Only few builds have that sort of ab and they have weakneses that a skilled wizard would have no problem using against them. I still think that +6 is too much considering cheese ac some wizards can get. I say make it highely caster level dependent with exponential growth. So only true commited wizard has great benefit from it. Remember, Armour Skin is epic feat and only gives 2 AC.

[Nyeleni]

Who would like a noisy and nasty mob (another name for the usual player base)? The only advantage I can see is to hit monsters easier now. Otoh me too as a regular NC/TC player I don't see a reason to reduce 6ac.
Might be they are only testing it so far. That's why it didn't appear on the changelog yet either.

[diddy33]

what exactly are the changes? i didn't see anything in the changelog.

[MLoki]

I have a couple of caster types that use Epic Mage Armor. Booth of these characters have monk in them to maximize AC. Let me give some examples of how these changes affect them.

Character #1: Nekid I'm getting a boost from 26 AC to 34 AC with Epic Mage Armor. While just wearing +6 Armor my AC goes from 32 to 38. Fully equipped with no buffs my AC goes from 57 to 63. This is not a pure caster but was built around having a "good" AC. Fully self buffed I could get a maximum of 83 AC and now it is 75. Even with an 83 AC this character was getting slaughtered trying to solo in Dwarven Home and gets killed quickly in PvP. I use this character as a caster and only use Tensors or Shapechange as a last resort.

Character #2: Fully equipped my AC is going from a 58 to a 64. Fully self buffed my AC is 69 but used to be in the mid 70s. This character is dex based with epic dodge and engages heavily in melee with Tensors. 1 on 1 this toon stands a decent chance against other builds by using a mix of spells and melee.

Wizards and Sorces were already limited in how much help they could offer in the planes and survivability has always been an issue. With this change they now lack the survivabilty that they were given to be able to keep up with the other classes. Most of the time as a caster in planar runs I have to sit back and pace the spells I use so that I'm not just dead weight. Without the added AC I fear wizards and Sorces will become a drain on raises and still only offer limited support. Previously these casters could count on Epic Warding if they truly got in a jam and with the changes to that spell and now this one they have no additional protection anymore to keep them alive.

I do like the suggestion of scaled bonus from Epic Mage Armor. This would limit how much of advantage you get from other classes while keeping pure casters alive. Both of the builds I mention relly heavily on Monk AC just to make them viable. If Epic Mage Armor were better for pure casters then this would make these builds more viable without haveing to count on AC from other sources.

I do have other casters and even some that were made before Epic Mage Armor and Epic Warding were changed so they have Warding instead of EMA. Most casters I have been making recently are heavy armor builds because of the lack of survivabiltiy even with Epic Mage Armor. Perhaps there is some balance that could be found.

[Chernobyl_Glow]

This one hurts. Many hybrid caster builds (other than PM's) used Epic Mage Armor to push their AC to a survivable point. I think the thing to understand was that pure casters weren't even taking it because wasting an Epic Feat was only going to get my pure wizard to about 45-50 ac. There's really no point in that. So for them was it overpowered? No. I didn't even take it.

For the hybrids though that was the thing that made them viable. I don't see the point of this change. I guess this is in response to complaints about high AC characters being hard for NC to defeat yet they never seemed to have a problem doing so.

If this was targetted at PM's (as would seem logical) then why not target them directly. I saw a PM player who has a ridiculous pet complaining that his AC dropped from 90 to 84. Ya. That needed a change. But casters who were making sacrifices in their build in order to try and have decent AC didn't need this correction.

FYI, Vaga, Diddy, Change Log entry would read something like:

- Reduced Epic Mage Armor bonus from 12 Shield AC to 6 AC (of unconfirmed type)
- Also reduced Pure Bard Song AC/AB from 6 to 5.

Best,

- Glow -

[cRaZy8or5e]

I agree. I think making epic mage armor give only +6 shield is a little excessive. Alkapwn is right, when the melee toons are able to keep their ab in the 60-70 range, I don't see what was unbalanced about +12. The only toons around that are literally unhittable are the 30PMs, and it's not the epic mage armor that's doing that.

Besides, Epic MA is the only thing helping a mage's ac against hipsers and being flatfooted.

I also have never heard anyone complain about epic mage armor and/or AC builds. If the players themselves don't have a problem with it, and the vast majority like the spell as it is, I don't understand why it needed to be changed. And especially to such an extent. -6ac is really killer, especially since most mages don't have a high AC to begin with.

Actually it is the epic mage armor that makes PM's unhittable.

Mages aren't supposed to be AC tanks.

I genuinely feel sorry for all those melee mages that were using this to help their tensor builds out. But for caster mages, I have no sympathy. Its too easy as it is to debilitate/slow your enemies down and kill them without them ever getting close enough to touch you. Archer builds and high SR monks have always been the bane of mages, and should be. This was why Epic Warding and other means of providing magical DR were created in the first place, so you could take a hit and keep casting.

Sorry, but I feel this nerf needed to happen.

.

Saying 70ab is common is a bit over the top. Only few builds have that sort of ab and they have weakneses that a skilled wizard would have no problem using against them. I still think that +6 is too much considering cheese ac some wizards can get. I say make it highely caster level dependent with exponential growth. So only true commited wizard has great benefit from it. Remember, Armour Skin is epic feat and only gives 2 AC.

70 AB is getting to be more and more common. a 25 BAB pure bard can attain it with very little work now self buffed, Pure fighters, RDD dragons, CoT's, of course AA's but they were one of those classes with the biggest ease in attaining that sort of AB.

The only thing that really bothers me about these changes is the fact that they're happening right now at the last minute before a large pvp event is happening. The timing could have been better.

[Daltian]

Character #1: Nekid I'm getting a boost from 26 AC to 34 AC with Epic Mage Armor. While just wearing +6 Armor my AC goes from 32 to 38. Fully equipped with no buffs my AC goes from 57 to 63. This is not a pure caster but was built around having a "good" AC. Fully self buffed I could get a maximum of 83 AC and now it is 75. Even with an 83 AC this character was getting slaughtered trying to solo in Dwarven Home and gets killed quickly in PvP. I use this character as a caster and only use Tensors or Shapechange as a last resort.

Well, my pure fighter has 60 ac and can't solo dwarves home at all. Do I complain? No because pure fighter is good as it is and Dwarf Home isn't any kind of benchmark at all. Any wizard including yours can easy kill my pure fighter. Is that benchmark, no. Wizard has its strenghts and its weakneses, and AC shouldn't be a strenght. You have way too many means to incapacitate oponent to need a good AC, so even 75 AC is too much.

[Daltian]

Saying 70ab is common is a bit over the top. Only few builds have that sort of ab and they have weakneses that a skilled wizard would have no problem using against them. I still think that +6 is too much considering cheese ac some wizards can get. I say make it highely caster level dependent with exponential growth. So only true commited wizard has great benefit from it. Remember, Armour Skin is epic feat and only gives 2 AC.

70 AB is getting to be more and more common. a 25 BAB pure bard can attain it with very little work now self buffed, Pure fighters, RDD dragons, CoT's, of course AA's but they were one of those classes with the biggest ease in attaining that sort of AB.
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As I said only few builds can attain it. You need to consider not everyone is playing only those builds specificaly. And wizards has means to win without having 80+ AC.

[MLoki]

FYI, Vaga, Diddy, Change Log entry would read something like:

- Reduced Epic Mage Armor bonus from 12 Shield AC to 6 AC (of unconfirmed type)
- Also reduced Pure Bard Song AC/AB from 6 to 5.

I believe it's 8 AC now but 2 of it is from Armor Bonus and doesn't stack. The other 6 is still a shield bonus and doesn't give any bonus if you happen to have a heavy armor mage with EMA. I thought that's why EMA was changed in the first place was so that it would be at least somewhat effective for everyone. Even if it gave +8 from 5 different sources it would only be just a little boost since most items already give +5 to +6 already.

BTW. The reason a Wiz can't solo is because they usually run out of spells before they can kill any mobs. After that they are simply a sitting duck and run around until they die. I fighter at least stands a fighting chance since they won't run out of being able to hit things.

[ashsagoon]

- Reduced Epic Mage Armor bonus from 12 Shield AC to 6 AC (of unconfirmed type)
- Also reduced Pure Bard Song AC/AB from 6 to 5.

-From my testing it was lowered from +12 Bonus Shield AC to +6 Bonus Shield AC (the exact same on any lvl 30 shield).

This means my Sorc/Pally who had about 61 ac (really not great at all but something) is down to 55 AC. Since I spent 4 feats getting silent spell so I could use heavy armor and a shield this feat is a complete waste. It's too bad I took it at my early 20s and no I'm not going to de-level 10-15 levels. It has also detrimentally affected several other builds already listed.

-The pure bard song seems to basically be nerfed by 1 all around. All saves, ab, and ac are dropped by 1 to be only +5. I believe the skills and bludgeoning damage are still +8.

I'm a little concerned that something that has been in since 1.69 and (I assume) was carefully thought out when it was implemented was so hastily altered almost a year later with no warning and after hundreds of builds have been designed to use it. I hope these changes were simply to implemented to gain feedback, but this is the wrong way of going about getting player feedback. I'd also like to state that while PvP is one of the major designs of the server, there are also lots of nice higher level planar areas that were created based on what was available to players at the time and that all these sudden changes without any alteration to npc creatures (as has been the custom with every previous nerf) just hurts the server even more. IE: the Celestia boss room was REALLY HARD when these toons had 70-80ac. I imagine it's impossible when you're getting hit over 25% more now. Sure, we can bring other toons that haven't been effected but that doesn't solve the problem, it just makes some toons useless.

I also dislike that the status quo now seems to be throw a change in and then post it on the change log a week later. Something like the dragons dropping people is acceptable, we can find that out on our own, but a huge change like losing 6 ac is not. At least a notice that "We're looking into changing epic mage armor but haven't finalized it" would at least let us know to hold off on building a toon that depends on it until after the changes are finalized. The AA changes are a great example, I love that AAs have been looked at and (imo) fixed. But if I had started an AA toon a week ago when the changes were still being worked on I would have loved to know that they were actually being worked on so that I could wait and then build around those changes. Rather than get to level 20 or 30 and find out that I should have gone for 30 AA levels for some super feat or whatever. I know Lokey talked to several people about them (and even those in my guild) and so with AAs I did know before it was on the change log but I'm sure others did not.

I have gotten way off topic and I apologize but this latest change demonstrates these issues. I think Alka and several others have made good points as to why this change should not have been implemented.