PP Revamped

[Korr]

So I started building a PPer, and will have more info later. But so far the rules for PP make it near useless to even take the skill.

Best case scenario would be a pure class non-dex non-high reflex save toon in which at 10 dex (0 modifier) you still have to just roll a 14 to recover a stolen item. No matter how epic this thief is.

The following changes have been implemented via script to curb the problems posed by the Pick Pocket skill. In general, these apply only to physical items and not gold.




The minimum delay between PP attempts has been extended slightly. This is good, it can get out of hand quickly.
You cannot target corpses. Again looks good, though its always fun to be a graverobber lol
After an attempt, your action queue will be cleared. This prevents an engine exploit with a player queuing up dozens of attempts and having them all resolve instantaneously. Another good preventative measure
Attempts while either the thief or the target is in combat will fail. Understandable, but it would seem if the target is in combat he would be relatively easy to PP
There is a maximum item weight proportional to your dexterity, trying to steal an item weighing more than this will result in failure. This was changed to a standard 3 lbs, which isnt a big deal (stealing a 50 lb sarcohpagus is a little overboard lol) But one problem I have noticed here, its an "after the fact" check, so if I do steal a sarcophagus it sends it back to my target and tells me the item was too heavy (wasted PP attempt)
Plot and undroppable items cannot be stolen. Good here
Visible thieves must succeed in an opposed CHA vs WIS check, simulating the attempt to distract the target from your intentions. This is good, maybe make it a persuade, or intimidate check (whichever is higher) against concentration. Would fall close inline with bluff vs sense motive of 3.0, although cha vs wis is about the same diff anyway
Invisible thieves must succeed in a move silently check opposed by the target's listen check. There is a -10 circumstance penalty for closeness. Seems ok, but why wouldnt a sneaker in general get a -10 to move silent even in a non-pp situation (but thats another deal altogether).
A victim of theft is allowed a reflex save to recover their item. The DC is 10, + 1 for every 2 levels in a class that has PP as a class skill. Heres the big boo I see. . . it should be a DC based off PP ranks or dex skill or something. Max DC here is 30, means no dexer or pally or rogue or any high reflex class will ever be PPable. . . no matter how blind deaf and dumb they are.
In addition, all stolen items are persistently tagged with the original owner's identity. If the original owner should happen to hunt down the thief and kill him, the stolen item will be returned. All cheers on this one, who doesnt love a good game of cat and mouse.

Retrieved from "http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.php/Pick_Pocket"

Anyone else have ideas, suggestions, comments on this?

[Rainswept]

If it were up to me I'd probably set a few specific things off-limits just because they are incredibly rare and it's stupid to have a toon who works hard, gets great gear, and can never hold on to it, let's say non-IA +6 gear and above, books, etc.

Outside of that, hmmm. It's just really hard to find a balance between making it a useful skill and making it too powerful. What I'd really like to see is it make all those items I mentioned completely picpocketable... from the monsters who carry them!

[Cahaal]

I had a level 40 pure rogue prior to the wipe and I saw the PP skill change drastically. There is no PvM usage for the skill as most of the items in the drop are calculated at the time of death with the exception of gold. So you can stand there for 20 min to PP about 1800 in gold in about 60gp increments. The main focus must then be for PvP.

I do not agree with the changes made and it was discussed that PP would be changed for pure rogues. I'm gonna say something that probably won't be popular. If you don't wanna be PP'd then you need to build to not be. Just like with SD's there are ways to stop PP skill.

I don't see a difference in disarm and PP. Both can cause you to lose equipment that you worked so hard for and both have a way for you to prevent, if you are willing to build it. And if you aren't willing to build it, then you come to the realization that you will lose equipment.

The weight limit of 10lbs is quite too low to get anything of true value, and I can't believe I'm agreeing with Korr, but the reflex save is way too easy to pass. Prior to the wipe I tested it and my level 40 pure rogue with maxed skills could not steal from some level 5 toons based on that reflex save.

Oh well this is my $.02 and it might not be worth very much but having the experience in this skill I figured I would at least provide what I tested and observed.

[cRaZy8or5e]

The weight limit of 10lbs is quite too low to get anything of true value,

I can think of a ton of items that weigh less than 10 pounds that are extremely rare and extremely valuable, and you can to if you think about it .

Having said that, PP is one of those things that can be a lot of fun. However, it is also something that is too easy to abuse. If you make it more playable then you also invite abuse/exploiting. Furthermore the way the game is designed, people won't even know that they are getting abused until later. While there are players who would PP and move on, there are others, burrahobbit for instance, who would build one of these purely to PP everything that people have for the sake of taking it.

Now we know that DM's would pay special attention to such things, WHEN they can. But they aren't true guardians in that they are able to be around all the time watching all the time. Personally, PP while it has that prankster draw to it, is one of those things that shouldn't be allowed unless you know that people aren't going to abuse it OR you have a means of limiting the abuse. I believe its set up the way it is right now, purely to limit abuse.

[Lorkar]

Just a thought, but if they implemented a target level range for characters it would broaden the use of PP but limit the abuse to lower characters. By target level I mean a level 40 would have more limits on what they could PP when they targeted characters of lower levels and those limits would increase the farther down they go.
A 40 would have an even chance of PP'ing anything off of another 40.
Then within 5 levels there would be a reduction in the size of an item, 10 levels another reduction all the way down to 1st level where they would be limited to gold so as not to be able to strip a lowbie and drive a new person from the server.
But I think it should be possible for a 40 to take anything off of another 40 if their skills are high enough.
At 40 PP should be treated just like disarm.

[Tal]

PP is to easy to exploit and should not be changed. If anything it should be removed. I proved this point in the past as did others by abusing the skill to the point of almost driving people from the server. DM's know how easy it is to exploit the skill, and I am sure they will not change it to make PP builds happier about abusing the skill again. If they do.. well.. I will just make a new PP build and abuse away.

[Korr]

Good feedback so far. If possible to implement it like disarm that would be cool, it only works effectively within 5 levels like disarm. If there were a way to set it so that if you stole an item from someone say 3 times in the last 6 hours (like PvP) you couldnt steal more items from them. You would still be able to steal gold, but that shouldnt be a huge deal because its in ~60 gp increments.

[MLoki]

Perhaps adding a cool down on the use of the skill would help self moderate this if any changes were made. Personally I would love to see Disarm have the same function where in killing the disarmer returns the disarmed weapon.

[Korr]

There is already a timer on the skill, but an increased timer wouldnt be a bad idea if the PP skill were more effective.

[diddy33]

make it decent, but only once per rest haha

[DM Mystic]

Right i made a PP had 30 cha with items and almost 50 dex, maxed PP epic skill focus hide MS PP it was pretty useless for anything but PP.

Could not steal a single thing. Every time no matter what, even a single scroll it said the thief detected or the item was too heavy etc.

Something appears to be broken i have reported it to devs but its low on the list atm. As a side issue the weight limit is 3lb not 10, however a LOT of stuff is in that 0 - 3 lbs rapiers, daggers, ammies, robes, boots, rings etc etc

For me if i invest so heavily in 1 skill i cant see the probelm in PP your death rapier as someone already said, build to make your toon immune.

So unfortunately korr, ATM i would no bother unless im doing something wrong that i cant see

[Korr]

The issue Im seeing as far as not being able to get an item away from someone is the reflex save.

You cant steal an item from someone COMPLETELY undetected, but they get a reflex save to get the item back. Even though they were COMPLETELY oblivious to the fact that you stole it!!!

[DM Mystic]

Yeah ok i was 29 rogue so reflex save dc was 10 + 14 ( 1 per 2 lvls in PP class) = dc 28 reflex

that must be the issue, though i tried it up and down the mountain trail on several people none of which was over lvl 15 i would guess. So I agree with your assesment, forget PP a dexer, a pally etc etc.

I guess its a fine line between PP is usless on ns4 and holy $%^& that guy is taking all my lvl 35+ gear so easy. I wonder if there is a way like disarm to put some script in where it checks for lvl diff. Maybe if within 5 or 10 lvls you can get gear off them but anymore then that its just gold never an item ?? still the reflex saved bit needs work if we are to want PP to be even remotely useful, or we could just lump it in with bluff and some other skills and say they have no use on NS4.

[Lokey]

Find some devs to make the module Linux friendly. NWNx can hook it under Linux.

Scripted can't be 100%...and is probably much lower when the server is packed.

On NPCs, we didn't have SetPickpocketable until a recent patch (I think it was 1.69). Linux put something together for players, but that's all for right now.

[ashsagoon]

Well since it seems to do a check on the item weight after you've stolen it (which sucks because it just wastes an attempt), I don't see why it couldn't check level difference at the same time. For example if I pick pocket a book off of you, it will give you a message that you lost it (if you spot it or whatever) and me a message that I successfully stole it, but then immediately after it will take it back out of my inventory and put it back in yours and tell me that it weighs too much. If it's checking for that then I don't see why it couldn't check levels as well. I assume this was the only way to implement it, if they could check the weight before it tried to steal it it wouldn't waste the attempt.